Politics as Usual

"Even your Liberal Democrat, President Truman, saw the necessity and ended the war by dropping Atom Bombs on Japan."

Indeed that was a dark hour in American history. But there is no way of knowing how many would have died in an invasion, in fact history has revealed that an invasion wasn't even necessary if the negotiation had been allowed time to proceed.

Terrorism: 1 the act of terrorizing; use of force or threats against a civilian population to demoralize, intimidate, and subjugate, esp. such use as a political weapon or policy.

Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th Ed. (p 1479).

By this definition America was responsible for the two largest terrorist events in human history. Indeed, we have had a long sad history of fighting Communism or Fascism with terrorism.

To date, Obama has done nothing criminal at all, not that he won't, he is after all a US president...Truman, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, on the other hand should all have been gibbed like cats in public for their crimes against American and humanity.

Mike,

It was predictable the photos of Pres. Obama's BOW would send the Neo Cons into a frenzy.

What these great thinkers fail to understand is this was not a bow to THAT Japanese emperor -- but a gesture toward tradition aimed straight at Bejing.

The U.S. President is meeting with OUR BANKERS.

That's right -- in eight short years -- DubYah and the Draft Dodgers turned us into huge debtors to the Chinese.

Now Obama has to convince them we are good for the BILLIONS borrowed by DubYah;

PLUS insisting the imbalance in trade must be eliminated;

PLUS the Chinese must correct the misalignment of their undervalued currency;

PLUS ask their cooperation in reining in North Korea's threat;

PLUS stop the copyright and patent piracy rampant within China;

PLUS convince them to quit saber rattling toward Taiwan;

PLUS, PLUS, PLUS, PLUS --- Does anyone get the picture.

Pres. Obama must walk tall and exude strength and confidence in dealing with China's leaders.He cannot bow to any of them to show respect for Asian traditions.

To establish his bona-fides for being respectful, a courteous bow in Japan had huge meaning.

All of us had better pray that terrible gesture is effective.

A FEW SMALL DETAILS TO CONSIDER:

While our nation's infrastructure was neglected and two mismanaged wars drained resources, North Korea and Iran were allowed to run amok FOR EIGHT YEARS.

So this week, all THIS president needs to do is pull at least SIX miracles out of his hat.

Somehow, China's leaders need to be reminded that if they continue an all-out economic war against the U.S. -- our full military arsenal would be forced into play.

Impossible -- Far from it.

Another ten years with the current imbalance of trade, plus mounting interest payments on our national debt to China --- and U.S. survival will require it.

All because DubYah wanted to avenge an attempt on "his daddy's life," while rewarding old cronies and political allies in the process.

With Americans dying to make it all possible.

Let the current economic situation continue through 2020 -- and the U.S. will only have one card left to play.

DubYah would label that one thing -- Nuke-uu-lar.

By the way, Sceptre -- "demonstrators from Ethiopia, in a peaceable manner, objecting to Obama giving that totalitarian country money."

The money going to Ethiopia is from DubYah's last budget and appropriated during his presidency.

That peaceful demonstration would better have been conducted at Crawford, Texas.

WHEN CONGRESS APPROVES A BUDGET AND THE SITTING PRESIDENT SIGNS THE BILL, or CONGRESS APPROVES FUNDS FOR ANY COUNTRY AND THE SITTING PRESIDENT APPROVES IT -- Responsibility for those actions fall upon the Congress and president signing their bill.

A succeeding president must honor that, like it or not.

But then, Sceptre, you would have to shine your own shoes and clean your own toilet.

Both skills you are more qualified to practice than two Harvard educated lawyers.

All you people are nuts. I don't know why I even read this thing...I've wondered that so many times before too.

Now WE are the A-holes of WWII? I thought we were the ones that pretty much ended it for everyone. I didb't realize that we were some sort of scum that needed to go appologizing for what we did.

I thought that the Japs attacked us unprovoked and caused catatrophic loss of life and military assets.

I thought that the birth record thing was settled a long time ago. I would think that with the powers of secret societies and their money, if there was a shred of truth to it someone could have put of the money and the means to get that fact brought to life.

Now here we are again blaming Dubya or whatever you call him for everything. You even said it yourself that it's congress too, but your only blame falls on Dubya. He did all these snaky things for greed and profit. Who's profit? What profit? Where did all this profit go? Where did all this so called profit come from?

I bet we have never owned the Chinese money before. Funny, when I was in senior economnics in '94-ish we had a 4 trillion dollar deficit, I wonder who owned that...Ethiopia?!?!?

Why isn't Obama being nailed for snaky profit, after all he's in caharge now. Trillion dollar stimunothin that he is in control of, I wonder how many of his slum lord cohorts in Chicago are getting millions to keep rentors poor and earting cockroaches while they go buy Bentleys and bling bling like he did when he was a community organizer that never facelifted one single building while in charge there.

You guys are all a bunch whinny loons. Take me off the blog, I don't care anymore...I can hardly take anymore of or your ignorant ranting and whinning, lie and crying, history-challenged, baloney!

I loved seeing Obama get on his knees for the Chinese and appologize once again for all the crappy things us greedy, profit-driven scumbags have done. We are such bad people in fact, that we have elected a president that has made it his M.O. to not leave a foreign country without a heart felt appology for all the rotten things we have done.

Let's see all the rotten things....

Ending WWII,

Tearing down the Iron Curtain,

Feeding the world,

Taking in refugees from all over the world,

Trying to keep peace between Muslims and Jews,

Sending 100's of billions in aid to fill in the disaster_________________

Helping rid the world of murderous dictators,

Speaking of the Chinese....commie's killing protestors that wont freedom, censorship, populaiton control, no free market (meaning all this ealth they are coming into lately goes to the already rich and the poor will ALWAYS remain poor), human rights violators, biggest unappolgetic pollutors in the world. And you guys sit here and rips America up. It's sad, really sad.

Sometimes Mike, I think if Obama wanted to write his own new National Anthem to replace the old one and include his name in it, you would be here the next day raving about it. And your buddies would be here talking about how the man who wrote the orginal was a profit craving scumbag who was a republican and he was drilling for oil and it was all his fault for this and that....kinda like what this place is like now.

I might as well throw this out there too, since it's a load of BS> Islam has ALWAYS been big part of US history? Obama says so, so I guess it's true. NOT! Since when? The country was colonized, settled, and founded by Chirstians, the Constitution has a remakable likiness to the Ten Commandments.

Had Islam had anything to do with our country at it's begining or childhood, women would not be voting, or seen in public, or driving cars. Killing would be okay if someone didn't agree with your religion. There would not be a separation of church and state. No one that settled this country was Muslim.

Buddism and Hinduism had about as much to do with this country being formed into waht it is today as Islam did. Maybe that's why the US, most of Europe, Japan, and most of Russia have been great coutries and most, if not all Muslim countries either are or close to 3rd world countries...unless you are a rich Sultan of course.

You can knock me all you want and call me a racist or whatever, I'm not. I'm just not afraid to call a spade a spade. I'm not politically correct and I'm proud of that because is don't cloud my judgment or make me weak. I don't have a problem with any of these people. I just know when they are wrong and I'm not afraid to say it.

America is a free country, the greatest there has ever been, so great in fact, that some countries want to tear us down. You guys continually nit pick at our own country and never call out these other guys. Then you salute your Master of Appology ceremonies for making us look stupid in front of World scum. Nice.

Mike, some day you should really take a deep breath and smell what you are shoveling!!

Four days after writing a tribute for Veterans, you write drivel about bombing "innocent" Japanese, and one of your "entitlement generation" buddies calls the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima "terrorism!" I would venture a guess that any Marine in the mud, or sailor in a boat in 1945 was more than happy to hear of our "terrorism" including your family member who survived a kamakazi attack. I know my dad was off Okinawa when the news broke of the bombing, and he always fondly remembered the day. OF COURSE, I am sure that the survivors of the Bataan march would just as soon that the "terrorists" that were tending to their imprisonment would have been R&R'ing in Hiroshima when the bomb went off. I suppose the next revelation you pose will be that the Bataan March was just a fabrication! For that matter, all of Japan's war crimes are just a fairy tale, inspired by the Bushes and the Rushes!!!

Maybe you should try learning something about history before you rewrite it!!

And FREDD, before you add your illiterate view, take a deep breath and try very hard to not sound like a racist and make another "get whitey" comment!!!

Between all the venom and vitriol --

There are a few FACTS which might be considered:

The court system in recent years has tried 192 terrorist suspects, convicted nearly all.

The military tribunals have tried THREE.

At this rate using only tribunals --

Gitmo will be clear of prisoners sometime in 2409 -- although there will be one Helluva problem keeping several hundred of those people alive long enough for trial before a tribunal.

Regarding -- Innnocent Japanese killed by the two A-Bombs.

FACT -- Without Capt. (U.S. Army Nat'l Gd.-Ret) Harry Truman's decision to use those two bombs, the WWII military planners estimated at least FIVE MILLION to as many as TWENTY MILLION Japanese men, women and children would have died.

At least 500,000 Allied men would have died.

[Ironically, when FDR died and Harry Truman was sworn in as president, it wasn't until after his first week in office that the new President learned of the Manhattan Project and development of atomic weapons. The decision fell upon him within a very short time to bomb or not to bomb.]

Japanese leaders have said since that if those two bombs had not been used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- the entire nation would have been destroyed in a fanatical defense.

FACT -- Pres. Obama has not bowed once, or shown any sign of subservience in China.

His actions in Japan demonstrated respect for Asian tradition as a signal to Chinese leaders. He has remained rigidly erect in China, towering over all the Chinese leaders, courteous, properly respectful and polite during the mandatory ceremonies.

The huge list of points of contention between the U.S. and China is complicated beyond belief by the enormity of the U.S. debt to China.

His position is similar to a Republican Valley farmer who owes his banker several times more than he can reasonably pay interest on.

Yet the farmer wants to demand the banker stop his seven sons from coming into his community and seducing all the 15-18 year old girls, cutting fences to gain access to the river for skinny-dipping parties in full view of several homes and the state highway.

We can all be glad that Barack Obama is representing the U.S. in China today -- and not the even-tempered Dick Cheney or John McCain.

[Can you conceive of Pres. McCain dying of a heart attack and V.P Sarah Palin moving into the Oval Office -- being in those negotiations today?]

Jan. 1, 2009, the enormity of the Global Economic Collapse and total responsibility of less than two dozen major U.S. banks for that collapse was frightening for everyone aware of the total situation.

CitiBank alone had lost several TRILLION DOLLARS for Persian Gulf [Dubai, Saudi, UAE, Yemeni, Kuwaiti, etc.] investors. No one knowledgable person appears to know the exact loss and those victims are not talking.

It is sufficient that they have withdrawn and still withhold their investments here.

[Which explains a lot of idle big rigs around the country. I know within 175 miles of my front door, there are at least 2,000 acres of big rig tractors, reefer and dry box vans, auto haulers, softsides, bulk trailers and low boys on consignment by owner/operators, banks and leasing companies and trucking companies. A 2000-2006 slope nose three axle with 500 HP, full sleeper and full Chrome -- Less than $15,000. 53' flat beds with 80% rubber -- $2500.]

Meanwhile one in ten U.S. workers is hung out to dry.

Two of our three major auto makers were forced into bankruptcy so they could strip awar debts and survive. Reported foreclosures continue climbing despite all the improving numbers.

Hey fellows, let's start a coupla extra wars next week.

Not only were those bombings, by definition, terrorism (coercion via violence against civilian populations to achieve a political end) but superior wisdom has argued that an invasion would never have been necessary. The argument seems to be that hypothetical death tolls are a justification for attacking civilian populations. We all know what would happen if al Qaeda tried to invade the US conventionally, so by your rationalization of our terrorism to avoid a costly death toll, you are justifying terrorist actions against us.

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

I just want to send a special thank you to jhat. Through all of the muck and vitriol that has occurred on this blog (and yes I do take some of the blame) you have stayed above it all in your posts.

Thank you jhat for showing what true debate should be.

Speaking of muck and vitriol, I just have a question. Do you people who rant and rave and name call and taunt and just in general behave badly around here speak this way in person or are you all a bunch of web warriors? Because seriously, if I felt the stupidity that passes for discource on these blogs was representative of how people truly behave I might have to kill myself or something.

Okay that's enough. duffer you have been flagged for your comments.

If you you or anyone else want to racial slurs to describe the President of the United States I suggest you go elsewhere. It will not be tolerated on this blog.

By the way I encourage all posters not to respond to anything that duffer says as this person is clearly only on here to flame other users and try to get them to say something on duffer's level.

I'm not telling you not to respond to Duffer, if you want to that's your choice, but I do encourage those that are actually here for debate to ignore those that are solely here to spread hate.

"Seriously, if we are what you believe, why would you love us?"

Because bad decisions made by bureaucrats do not define the people MrsSmith.

Now here is a question for you: Why is it okay for every Conservative on Earth to come crawling like termites out of the woodwork to criticize the president and everything he does from ordering a hamburger to acting like a real leader abroad and THAT is patriotic...but when a liberal does the same thing (i.e., questions the bureaucracy) then they hate America?

Transplant, you can slur anyone you want, as long as Mikey agrees with your point of view. Bash Bush all you want, OF COURSE, even though he is not making decisions now. Bash me because I have the audacity to not agree with the "entitled one" and the garbage he blogs.

OF COURSE, always compliment the rockstar-in-chief, because he can do no wrong. He should be considered the UNTOUCHABLE ONE. (By the way, does he tie his shoes correctly, or does he wear sandals?)

Otherwise, be careful, the moral police will be headed your way!

My point, freddy, since you can't seem to get it, is that while mikey is free to piss and moan about those of us who disagree with the rockstar and his actions, he should consider the fact that he and his liberal minions, are still ready to boil Bush in oil!! When the hatred toward the rockstar begins to rise to 10% of what was directed toward Bush, then he just might have a reason to piss and moan! Otherwise, to borrow a phrase from you, get a can of shut the hell up!

To all posters:

Please refrain from using vulgar words on this blog. Remember young children can get on here and read this language. If you wouldn't use this kind of language around a five year child, don't use it on this blog.

Justin after reading through your long diatribe of a post a have a couple of questions since you believe you are the intelligent one among all of illiterates:

When did Obama get on his knees for the leaders of China? I must have missed that one.

When did Obama ever apologize for anything America has done? Do you have transcripts?

I don't remember Obama ever saying that Islam has always been part of America, but if he did he was probably talking on a much grander scale that all religions have had a roll in the formation of this country.

The last time I compared the Bill of Rights and the Ten Commandments they were remarkably different. Mostly because the Bill of Rights tells us what our rights are and the Ten Commandments tell us what we can't or shouldn't do.

But yeah if you could answer those questions for this illiterate and give me a place where I can verify it I would appreciate. I love learning new things.

The only thing that I have called for Bush to be held accountable for were the breaking of world wide and American laws when he gave the okay for torture. If he didn't, great I have no quarrels with him.

As soon as Obama breaks a law I'll call for him to be held accountable for it as well.

Are you suggesting that saying Islam is a part of America is now against the law duff? That would be about your speed.

I didn't suggest anything. The video was in response to mikey's denial that the rockstar said "Islam is part of America."

As for embracing muslims in particular, just keep that in mind when you see muslims dancing in the streets shouting "Death to America." Tell me how that "inspires" you!

In fact, watch this video and tell me how "inspired" you are!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91NH5f...

Look on your front porch, fredd! There will be a quarter there. You can use it to call someone who gives a damn what you think!!

"Duffy you are always talking about when and what if. What if President Obama raises Taxes, even though he has lowered Taxes, What if President Obama tries to take our guns away, There is now bills regarding firearms, what if, what if... I suggest you rty to live in the real world, not one that Glen Beck tries to paint for you."

Fredd! When did I mention taxes, guns, or Glen Beck???? Can you try a little harder to keep up???? Or are you just always confused?

Oh, and I will "rty" as soon as I figure out what "rty" means!!!!

You need to move over to mikey's education piss and moan, you might learn to spell!!!

When you show me 10's of thousands of Christians dancing in the streets shouting "death to _____" you might just have an argument.

Are you really naive enough to believe that the muslim religion does not view all non-muslims as "non-believers" and deserve to be destroyed as such????

I can see it on next week's church bulletin:

"There will be a bomb-making lesson on Wednesday night. All who wish to volunteer to blow themselves up on a bus full of children, please leave your name with Pastor Smith"

Go ahead mike, take it down! Maybe you could party-line with fredd when he makes his call!!!

Take this one down, and I move to your educational piss-and-moan. You really don't want me there!

Mike,

In other words: "You two stop picking on each other, or I will turn this blog around!"

Mrs. Smith. I'm sorry you see it as a "non-stop stream of abuse". I see it more as a constructive criticism. Certainly there are those that broach civility and are outright hateful, but they are clearly the minority. And I don't know of one person on this blog who I would consider "hateful" of America.

And I'm glad you are happy with your marriage. I am happy with my relationship where we feel comfortable enough with each other to talk candidly about our shortcomings, so that we can help each other overcome our faults by working together and supporting each other.

As far as some of the anti-Muslim sentiment that is rearing it's head, I'm quite disgusted. I work with many Muslims. And they are generally some of the nicer people I've known. They are as appalled by the actions of radical Muslims as I assume most Christians are appalled by the actions of the KKK.

No one would deny there are more radical Muslims than radical Christians in today's world. But it is still unfair to categorize all Muslims as radicals. The problem isn't Islam, it's extremism.

jhat (you know that is how fredd would spell jihad) - When will the "nicer" muslims do something about the extremists?

We have stood up to them! Remember Janet Reno's BBQ in Waco? Crispy Critters! When was the last time you saw a KKK rally on the Red Willow Courthouse lawn? You really need to get back to Spongebob Squarepants fredd!

"gramerical"????

Is that something we need to get vaccinated for???? Or is that a new right-wing extremist group?????

Fredd and other Liberals:

I understand that there are a lot of people who fail to meet the expectations of the "conservative family values" you mock, but does that mean those values have no value or that people fail to reach lofty goals? I find it tremendously rude to continue to exhibit glee at the downfall of individuals, as rude as I find duffer and spectre with thier race baiting fear mongering. Is there no middle ground? Do you not believe that the values espoused are worthy? In basing your attack on MrsSmith, where did she say she favors any of the things in your rant? I'm not saying she didn't, if she did, by all means fire away!

btw, you do know what Frankie says right?

Great mini-series on the History Channel this week!

The History Channel! Bastion of the Right-Wing Extremists! You know the type! The ones that realized what it takes to actually win a war!

Words of 12 Americans involved in WWII (our last win), and a lot of color footage in HD! Color footage, showing the magnitude of the battle in the Pacific, that leaves very little to the imagination about the savagery and tenacity of the Japanese soldier.

OF COURSE, they were just a few extremists, not really representative of the Japanese people!

OF COURSE, we would have never been in the War in the Pacific if Dubya wouldn't have staged the Pearl Harbor attack!

I know what Fredd is chanting!

"Death to White America!"

You bet! Islam and Christianity are so much alike!

I have heard lots of Christian sermons denouncing America and Americans! Us Christians are a surly bunch for sure!

I nominate you to be the first on your block to strap on a bomb and blow something up!!

Duffy, do you understand the words "radical" "extremist" or "sect"?

Duffy, do you remember the Crusades? The Inquisition?

Duffy, even you have to understand that the Bible, The Quran, or any other holy text will have passages that can be misconstrued or manipulated to inspire hate.

And, just so you know, you deliver sermons darn near every other post condemning Islam and it's followers. Face it Duffy, your ideology is the same as theirs...intolerance is ugly and a sure track to bad times.

Grow up!

"Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime."

God bless America

Carl, you remind me of the guy who said "if you are being raped, just go with the flow." Or words to that effect!

Again, you need to be the first on your block to meet the 40 virgins!!

Duffy, wishing for my death openly like that truly puts your good old fashioned virtuous Christian values on display. you are truly a testament to radicalism and hate. Your resemblance to terrorists is striking. You are evil Duffy. Evil and spiteful.

God bless America

i actually do feel sorry for you Duffy. I dare you to ever have a point. I also challenge you to a real debate on the topic of your choosing. The one caveat I have is that you cannot resort to your usual tactics of name calling and wishing me dead. What's it gonna be?

God bless America

well, i tried...

God bless America

Duff,

This video Duff, the one YOU posted. It fiugres that you didn't even watch, just cut pasted and link in attempt to try and persuade someone that you have ONE CLUE as to what you are talking about. You are emabrrasing yourself Duff, its time to think about a new approach.

Look at 2:39, about 14 seconds after the time you told mike to look for "Islam, as we all know, is a part of America."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ4rn5z0L...

Posted by dufferxyz on Tue, Nov 17, 2009, at 2:42 PM

Because of certain individuals on this particular blog who feel that is better for them to call others name and cuss at will, this blog will be removed at 8:00 P.M. I hope you are satisfied with yourselves. Your inability to keep the topic civil and you insistence to constantly change the topic of the blog and deride anyone who doesn't agree with you has cost everyone else a chance to get their ideas out.

Congratulations on stifling discussion on this blog. The Tea Partiers couldn't be happier.

Good riddance!

Those that are the cause of this know who they are.

It was actually on TV Mike, for crying out loud. It's actually on TV and you will still sit in your chair and deny it. I love it. You are so full of Bush derrangement syndrome and your disdane for conservatives you can actually sit there and ignore what's all around you. It's something to behold. I really didn't think you could stoop so low but I guess I was wrong.

You can't get over the fact that conservatives had the audacity to assemble and protest.

Iggy, I guess it takes a smart_$$ to know one. Hey, I have my own uphill battles to fight and I'm strong enough and smart enough to do it on my own. At least I have that. All your insults can't take away from me, and when the next government program comes out that you guys sign on to because it's your right to have wealthy people pay your way...I'll be pulling my own weight, so cheers. Sponges.

The right trashing the court system? Try the left. It is the left that is constantly trying to tinker with our laws to justify their evil. All the right (conservatives) want is to enforce the laws we already have.

Yeah seriously Chunk, why is it suddenly "the worst decision by any US president ever," but the previous 100 or so terrorists tried on US soil were no problem at all?

Iggy & Mike,

My answer is this. These terrorist were not captured on American soil, unlike previous terrorists. They are enemy combatants, meaning they claim no allegiance with a UN defined country. They were captured in a foreign country, where they were interrogated thoroughly, and given valuable information (yes, it's true) to the US military. A military tribunal pits the terrorists against the US military. In a civil court, the terrorist against the justice department, their cases would bed thrown out and they will be released.

Now Mike, give me a break.

That would be an interesting point Chunk, if it weren't patently false.

Ramzi Yousef was arrested at his home in Islamabad and extradicted to the US for trial. He is imprisoned for life in the US penal system.

Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani was arrested in Pakistan and after being held at Guantanamo, he was extradicted and faced trial in New York.He was conviceted and is serving a life sentence.

Mokhtar Haouari was arrested in Canada and was extradicted to the US for trial also. He recieved 24 years for his part in a terrorist conspiracy to bomb an airport.

Shall I continue? Would you like to retry your argument?

It does make a difference if we get them ourselves or if we play backup.

What does it matter who arrested them? Obviously the precedent for capturing terrorists in other countries (occasionally housing them in Guantanamo) and extradicting them here for trial has been established. There has never been such a dumb reaction to these events until now. So the questions still stands...why?

(The correct answer is that it is petty political manuevering that blatantly ignores history).

CPB if you can't debate without name calling I will flag you.

I was questioning your understanding of history because you stated that we never tried anyone that we had captured in other countries when in fact we had.

But I do find it interesting your continuing silence on the fact that we have tried AND CONVICTED terrorists in civil courts in the United States with absolutely no issues during the Bush Administration and the only time you've had an issue with it is when we are about to try some more under Obama. This is clearly a partisan political issue for you and not a fear of something going wrong.

I have to agree with fredd, though, the fact that you would actually sit there and assert that any American wants to see terrorists succeed in this country is horrific.

How are they different?

My great Uncle in Warren, Arkansas served in WWII. He has been a doctor there since 1950. He thinks that you are very misinformed about the end of WWII. He was stationed in the Aleutian Islands and flew B-17's and B-29's.

According to him, we were going to invade Japan. Millions were going to die. The dropping of the Atom Bomb was viewed as the magic bullet. In 4 days, the war ended and Millions and Millions of lives were saved.

Say what you will but you are wrong on this one.

You will have to forgive me Wallis if I am inclined to believe folks like Dwight Eisenhower and William Leahy over your uncle. There are plenty of opinions about whether there was going to be an invasion or not, and how high the death toll may have been, but there are FACTS out there that are researched, confirmed, and iterated by our nation's leaders in biographies and interviews and books. Japan was ready to surrender, but there were problems in the negotiation of the surrender. Whether these problems were resolvable we can never know because the US decided to terroristically pursue their desired political end by killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese men, women, and children. If that isn't terrorism, I don't know what is.

Sorry, Chunk I am not understanding why who arrested these terrorists makes a difference in where and how they are tried?

And anyway, you are wrong:

Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani (one of several examples) was arrested in a joint military operation (Pakistani and US armed forces), sent to Guantanamo Bay, and was later extradited to New York where he faced trial, was convicted of being a terrorist, and was sentenced to life in prison. You very obviously didn't know about this happening, and so I wonder, why?

Well the reason is quite obvious as far as I can see. You didn't know about it because Rush/Beck/Hannity/Fox News didn't make an enormous deal out of it. In other words, it wasn't news worthy. So what about these new trials is different? The answer is that the right wing ideologues feeding Rush/Hannity/Beck/Fox News decided to make it an issue THIS TIME because of the profiles of the men being tried. They did this because they want to score political points with people like you, who likely don't know about the hundreds of other terrorists that have already been tried and convicted in the US.

Guillermo & mike,

Thanks for proving my point, AKG was arrested in Pakistan by Pakistani forces, and backed up by US forces. He was also extradited. Many of those at Gitmo were never arrested, but rather captured. Most, if not all, will never be extradited.

Consult a lawyer on this one.

I notice CPB that anytime that either I or GI prove your points to be short in evidence you just simply change what you believe the facts are.

The simple point here is, these men are charged with killing or planning the death of American citizens and now they are going to be tried by an American court system. I just don't understand what about this you find so abhorrent. As much as you stand up and defend everything American as being the best this is your perfect to chance to crow about it instead you are ripping the decision apart.

Make me understand why you think everything American is the greatest in the world except the American court system. You yourself said, "All the right (conservatives) want is to enforce the laws we already have." This is the perfect oppurtunity and yet in this case you don't want to have anything to do with it unless it is done by a military tribunal (by the way they have only tried three cases in the last 8 years).

That's a good point especially for the anti-tax crowd.

Your point still is very UNCLEAR Chunk. Your argument was that if a member of our police force, or any other country's police force, arrests a terrorist, be it in our country or another, then they are fit to stand trial in the US. BUT, when a military service member arrests a terrorist and that person is housed at Guantanamo Bay, then they are no longer fit for trial in the US.

(by the way, this was not your original argument, Mike is right, you adapted your thoughts as you were presented with counter arguments...which is totally fine, but you did do that).

The counter arguments were that there is a history of terrorists that don't meet the conditions that you presented, yet were tried in the US and there was no rightwing outcry (The most recent of these terrorists was tried in June of this year). So what about this new batch of terrorists warrants the the outcry, if it is anything other than rightwing media running a political game?

The other counter argument is that your logic behind the premise that the arresting force, be it military or civilian, would or should somehow impact whether or not a person is tried in the US, is unlcear. In other words, what is your reasoning that a distinction should be made on where a person can stand trial, based on the arresting force?

Guillermo & mike,

Where exacly did I change the premise of my arguement?

You've changed your argument back and forth between whether or not our court system could handle the terrorists to who captured them to what they are.

The bottom line is that the men that have been captured, arrested, or whatever term you choose to use (also whether they are terrorists or enemy combatants) are being tried for killing American citizens. The committed crimes against primarily citizens and they should and will be tried by our civil court system.

What you won't even acknowledge is that comparisons between the American court system and military tribunals the court system has a far better record.

So your response to the fact that the civil courts have not only shown they can handle terrorists cases but they are doing better than military tribunals is to ask if I have ever played dungeons and dragons?

That's okay, honestly that's about the kind of blind recognition I expected from you.

Well, there isn't much I can do about your opinion. But if it helps civilian courts have done a great job of trying and convicting terrorists so far. You are right though, we will have to wait to see what happens.

I find it interesting that after Dana Perino was nominated for a post in the Obama White House she went on Fox News and proclaimed that "We did not have a terrorist attack on our country during President Bush's term."

For all the talk on this site about liberals revising history Perino just knocked the revision ball out of the park.

So I guess the question is, Ms. Perino, what was 9/11? An inconvenience?

Great pick President Obama, a woman who revises history to protect her old boss to score a political point against her potential new boss on Fox News.

Since Mike and Gullimermo are all knowing.....How should we deal with Iran???????

Please make a decision in real time. No revisionist history on this one.

Wallis,

It means Mike has no answers. Unable to go back in time to blame Reagan/Bush1 & 2, Mike is unable to formulate a coherent response to what's happening today.

Only in your world Mike, is explaining a point of view somehow changing the argument. Am I going to be flagged?

The real problem with the Republicans boils down to simple mindedness. Which policy is easier to understand-fix health care and restore our image to the world or export democracy to the Axis of Evil?

It's easy to understand how comprehending these complex issues could lead some to run, which is why Democrats typically have lower initial approval ratings than Republicans. What I can't get over is how many people can be so ignorant as to think war is still acceptable foreign policy despite less than stellar results. How it can't be obvious that ignorance leads to our terrorism issues is beyond me.

As for Sceptre and Duffy, hopefully one of the nephews stuck a turkey leg in their CPUs.

God bless America

Wallis,

Mike is right, an invasion or preemptive military action would be a poor decision. What we should be doing with Iran is pretty much what we ARE doing right now. Iran's conservative leadership is at its most unstable and vulnerable since their revolution. The more we can exercise diplomacy with China and Russia and other world powers in order to increase imposed sanctions multi-laterally the more likely it is Iranians will demand or possibly even force a change in leadership.

Recently, in the Washington Post, Robert Kagan put it like this:

"What the world has not focused on is the one thing Iran's rulers care about: their own survival...It would be better if the administration focused on the regime's instability and ignored the nukes. This ought to be the goal of the 'crippling' sanctions the Obama administration has threatened. Sanctions will not persuade the present Iranian government to give up its nuclear weapons program. ... But the right kinds of sanctions could help the Iranian opposition topple these still-vulnerable rulers."