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Wednesday, May 4, 2016

Sissies and tomboys

Friday, October 28, 2011

When I was in grade school, there was a boy in our class who played jacks and jumped rope with the girls instead of playing ball with the rest of the guys. At that age, we didn't think anything about his sexual orientation at all. We just thought he was a sissy.

There was also a girl who was always one of the first people picked when we were putting together a softball team because she could hit the ball farther than most of the guys. We knew she was a tomboy. We had more in common with her than the guy who played with the girls because she shared our interest in sports so we always considered her to be just one of the guys. We were 9 or 10 years old at the time.

One of the news programs on a national television network did a story on twin boys a year or two ago. The parents were very concerned because although the boys were born at the same time and raised the same way by the same parents, they were as different as daylight and dark.

The parents took the news team into one of the boy's bedroom and it looked the way most of our bedrooms looked when we were growing up. There was sports memorabilia on the walls and on the floor, a blanket on the bed that signified his favorite sports team and when he was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up, he said "an athlete."

Then they went into the other boy's room. There wasn't anything even remotely connected to sports in it. Instead he had dolls lying all around and he had a canopy bed that his parents said he had asked for. When he was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up, he said "a girl."

These three examples are used because these three kids were who they were before puberty, before they or the rest of us knew anything about sex at all. The boy and girl I grew up with both became gay and it's likely that the boy in the news show will too.

For them, they obviously didn't make a choice to pursue a "deviant" lifestyle because none of us even knew what a deviant lifestyle was. Heterosexuals don't have an "aha" moment when we realize we're straight.

We just do what comes natural to us based on the desires we feel without having to "learn" a particular lifestyle. If the world works that way for straight people, it makes sense that it works that way for gay people too.

The rhetoric of the political right, influenced significantly by the religious right, insist that homosexuality is a deviant choice that people make.

No one yet knows exactly what determines our sexual orientation, even though different theories abound. But we have to remember that a theory is not a fact, at the most it's an educated guess.

Because the vast majority of people living in the world don't go through a decision-making process about their sexual orientation, I have to believe gay people don't either. They just are who they are, just like straight people.

The best estimates put the number of heterosexuals in the world at about 90 percent, gays 4 to 6 percent and bisexuals 2 to 4 percent. These numbers are consistent regardless of the political, social, or religious nature of the culture.

In the '40s and '50s in the United States when being gay guaranteed the loss of a job, being evicted from where you lived, social isolation from anyone who knew and ostracism from your parents, there were just as many gay men and women as there are now when most of us have become a lot more tolerant towards gays.

It seems to me the only way this is ever going to become a better world is to stop hating and start embracing those who are different from us.

And based on the current political climate, we've got a long, long way to go.

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Were the Twins Identical or Fraternal? Identical Twins have the same DNA, fraternal twins have different DNA.

There is actually a rivalry between some fraternal and identical twins. Some fraternal twins feel that identical twins don't consider them "real twins".

I am a identical twin which is why I am curious about the twins you are referencing.

Wallis Marsh

aka wallismarsh

-- Posted by wallismarsh on Sat, Oct 29, 2011, at 6:23 AM

To play devils advocate, it seems more rational to associate sexual behavior on conditioning rather than some genetic predisposition.

For instance, it would be hard to believe men in prison commit sexual acts to other men because of some genetic trait, but rather conditioning due to a lack of females.

If this were otherwise, one would think people having the same "gay gene" or displaying the same behaviors as a tomboy or sissy would all be homosexual. But not all people non-heterosexual exhibit the same behaviors nor do all heterosexuals display same behaviors.

It would be similar to picking a group of people of a certain behavior and then blaming it on like DNA.

-- Posted by bberry on Sat, Oct 29, 2011, at 8:41 PM

So, bberry, when did you decide to be straight? If, as you say, it is not genetic but conditioning then people who are straight are conditioned to be straight.

Your example of saying that it should be assumed that all people who are seen as tomboys or sissies are gay has one glaring problem. In the natural world there is no such thing as absolutes.

I have known girls that loved sports yet were straight. I have also known guys who loved sports and showed no signs of being a sissy being gay.

I have heard for most of my life from people opposed to the gay lifestyle that they choose to be gay. I have always asked that if people choose to be gay why then as homosexuality has become more acceptable has the number of gay and lesbians remained constant and not gone up. The other question that I asked at the top also comes in. If being gay is a choice then so to is being straight, or bisexual, or any other sexual identity. I am straight but I don't remember at any point of my life choosing to be straight.

The men in prison is an extreme example because it really has no bearing on sexual identity. Men in prison have sex with other men, yes, because of the lack of females, but once they are out of prison they go right back to women. Genetically, they are straight, but because of a situation that led them to being in an environment with no women they had sex with men to fulfill that biological need of humans for sex.

-- Posted by MichaelHendricks on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 6:27 AM

Oh finally, a bite.

To answer the first question, I would think a person begins to identify with their sexuality around puberty when they start taking on their preference or exhibiting their sexual behaviors. Me personally, I do not recall since I didn't make a note of when. However, having genetic disposition would mean the person would most likely display their tendencies throughout their entire life, birth and on. But I've not known any children to display the behavior of wanting to have sex with other children of the same sex, do you? You do not see young children saying, hey I'd like to take that 5th grader home with me ( or at least not in a sexual context.)

This is much similar to people being Republicans or Democrats. They exhibit this behavior yet there is no genetic trait determining that they are either affiliation.

As far as the sissy/tomboys being gay, this was not my opinion but the editors or at least this is how I read it. This is why I said not all people exhibit the same behaviors so because the boy in question was a sissy, didn't mean he was already gay. In other words, we have the same opinion in this matter. People simply like to indetify themselves where they are accepted just like others will stereotype them as being sissies and will be gay, although there are straight sissies.

As far as a choice, since it is conditioning you are geared to be the way you are and at some point you do choose to act on this. This is similar if you expose a person to a nothing but Rush Limbaugh they are most likely going to be Republican because they do not know any different. If behaviors were genetically dispositioned, it would not matter what influences there were, they'd already act on their traits.

As far as prison, if genetics determined sexual behaviors regardless of environment, it would seem to me that no straight man would ever touch a man sexually or no homosexual would have sex with the opposite sex. But yet this still happens? So if you believe in a gay gene, do you believe in a bisexual gene?

The best argument the gay gene supporters have is that they do not know enough about DNA to refute the point that their may be a gay gene. But conditioning can certainly explain why people display the behaviors they do because we already know a lot about human behaviors.

So, if you recognize people as being sexual beings needing to fulfill their need for sex around conditions theyre presented in, how can you find conditioning less logical than some DNA that hasn't even been found?

-- Posted by bberry on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 8:45 AM

There will come a day when the mere fact that we even had this discussion will be met with the same repulsiveness as when we hear about segregation based on race from decades ago. Many people thought, back then, that it wasn't an irrational idea at all but a few saw it for the bigotry that it was and stamped it out. This is the shameful discrimination of our generation that we must overcome. It will eventually be stamped out too and people will be known by future generations for their words and actions and be viewed accordingly. The only choice to be made is what you choose to support or oppose.

-- Posted by McCook1 on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 12:03 PM

It is possible, McCook1. But makes for a good talking point now. Although, if a person is repulsed by a particular conversation, why join in?

-- Posted by bberry on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 12:38 PM

Though confusing, having grown up in a heterosexual predominate society, the only references to homosexuality were extremely negative, I knew from around the age of three, if not earlier, I was gay. I tried (and prayed) very hard not to be, to act as I was taught a man acts. Had several older and younger siblings, all straight. The most important gift my parents gave me amid all of the confusion was the encouragement to be myself. This was not easy, they did not like it, and with no internet back then it was a lonely path.

Have been acquainted with a large number of gay and lesbian people since leaving the northwest Kansas/southwest Nebraska area and can only recall one person stating they chose to be gay. The other 99.999999999% never made a choice, they did at some point in time did make a conscious decision to be themselves. Many choose to first marry and often have children, but in the end they had to live the life they were meant to live

versus living a lie to please society. Too many have committed suicide rather than live with the rejection of their family of origin and/or the condemnation of various religious/ethnic groups.

And the biblical mistranslations are a whole other hornet's nest.

Christ never condemned nor condoned homosexuality, he did exhort us to "Love one another as I have loved you."

-- Posted by ontheleftcoast on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 4:23 PM

"I knew from around the age of three, if not earlier, I was gay."

While I appreciate the rest of your post, I find this hard to believe.

-- Posted by bberry on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 5:39 PM

"I have heard for most of my life from people opposed to the gay lifestyle that they choose to be gay"

This doesn't make sense, why would people who choose to be gay be opposed to the gay lifestyle?

Keep taking those writing lessons ;)

-- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 6:40 PM

Biblical mistranslations? Where? The Bible is very clear of the subject. But yes, the 11th Commandment, as we followers of Christ are commanded to do, does trump all.

-- Posted by Chunky Peanut Butter on Mon, Oct 31, 2011, at 9:04 PM

Chunky I can't remember the source right off hand but prior to about 200 years ago, the Bible used different translated words with slightly different meanings that didn't imply god was against homosexuality.

Unfortunately, unless you learn Hebrew or Greek, you're at the mercy of the translators over who is correct.

-- Posted by npwinder on Tue, Nov 1, 2011, at 8:38 PM

np, you probably cannot remember because such actual proof does not exist. I realize it is difficult to fathom, but when a new or modernized version of the Bible are released, thousands of translators are brought in, most are secular. This takes years to translate word by word. Therefore, the Bible is accurate.

I have found over the years, when when non-believers have a dispute with the Bible, lost in translation becomes a convenient excuse for sin.

-- Posted by Chunky Peanut Butter on Tue, Nov 1, 2011, at 11:42 PM

Lets pin this one on Moses. Who drops the 10 commandments and all? I mean really, he must have been democrat, always needing things, seas parted, mana to eat etc etc. It only seems fair that we give him his share of the blame.

/end facetiousness

-- Posted by bberry on Wed, Nov 2, 2011, at 11:54 AM


" This is the shameful discrimination of our generation that we must overcome. It will eventually be stamped out too and people will be known by future generations for their words and actions and be viewed accordingly."

Just a question here if you don't mind, but if homosexuality becomes widely accepted by future generations, then how will there be anyone to look back at us at all? We don't make the rules here, anyway you slice it, same sex relationships is ultimately planned obsolescence. If there is no reproduction, then...... Well...... What can I say, there is no one to look back at our generation. One might say that's called Natural Selection.

-- Posted by Nick Mercy on Thu, Nov 3, 2011, at 12:09 AM

I assumed it was the heterosexual population was mccook1 was referring about looking back and judging the other heterosexuals for their actions.

But good point on the finite generation.

-- Posted by bberry on Thu, Nov 3, 2011, at 8:38 AM

The Bible makes quite clear that all sexual behaviors and choices have always been around. Leviticus has some very enlightening rules about sexual behavior. The Bible also makes clear the real Christian position on all sinful behavior, that we all sin, and that salvation through Christ is the only way to attain forgiveness.

It is unfortunate that so many refuse to recognize their own BEHAVIORS as sinful, but rather pretend that getting some human-written law passed will eliminate their sin.

There has never been a Biblical law against being who you are. Rather we are all to become as sinless as possible with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

We are ALL born as sinners. We all make choices to sin. We all must overcome those choices in order to choose Christ's salvation. "Born that way" doesn't excuse anything...

-- Posted by MrsSmith on Sun, Nov 6, 2011, at 10:30 AM

MrsSmith, that is broken down precisely! As Christians go, it can't be argued. One might be an alcoholic, but if they make the decision to quit drinking, all the issues involved with being an alcoholic disappear. Good point Mrs. Smith!

If you're not Christian, well then, it's not quite as cut and dry. I'm a Christian so I will devoutly agree.

-- Posted by Nick Mercy on Sun, Nov 6, 2011, at 4:29 PM

As far as Christians go, yes, if an alcoholic (or any other compulsive sinner) quits drinking (or any other sin) and surrenders their life to Christ, we Christians are to forgive all past sins. Non-Christians are under no obligation to do such, and usually don't.

However, the sins are still a part of our lives, and we are obligated to use our experience to help those who are about to, or have, failed. That's the obedient part of our faith.

-- Posted by Chunky Peanut Butter on Wed, Nov 9, 2011, at 10:13 PM

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Mike Hendricks
Mike at Night