Escape From Detroit

Posted Saturday, March 27, 2010, at 5:29 PM
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  • With on this one too Sam!!!! These Libs must live life with blinders on.....

    -- Posted by orville on Sat, Mar 27, 2010, at 6:16 PM
  • With you on this one too Sam!!!! These Libs must live life with blinders on.....

    -- Posted by orville on Sat, Mar 27, 2010, at 6:18 PM
  • the $74 dollars an hour is wrong. It includes what the retirees makes and divides that by the current employees. It's really more like 55ish dollars an hour(including health benefits ect) which is about 10 dollars more then toyota, honda and the like.

    It wasn't liberalism that killed the auto industry, it was the fact that Americans decided the Detroit companies' cars were crap and started buying other cars. Though, the unions didn't help.

    -- Posted by npwinder on Sat, Mar 27, 2010, at 10:00 PM
  • the $74 dollars an hour is wrong. It includes what the retirees makes and divides that by the current employees. It's really more like 55ish dollars an hour(including health benefits ect) which is about 10 dollars more then toyota, honda and the like.

    It wasn't liberalism that killed the auto industry, it was the fact that Americans decided the Detroit companies' cars were crap and started buying other cars. Though, the unions didn't help.

    -- Posted by npwinder on Sat, Mar 27, 2010, at 10:00 PM
  • *

    The following article and the comments that accompany it give a lot more more insight into the decline of Detroit and the US auto industry.

    -- Posted by Brian Hoag on Sun, Mar 28, 2010, at 8:58 AM
  • SAM,

    As usual living in the past.

    Under the restructuring, union wages and benefits dropped to an even level with the NUMI plant operate by Toyota in Fremont, Calif. and the other Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW, Volvo and other U.S. plants of overseas auto makes.

    In point of fact, that wild LIBERAL president who just landed in Kabul about an hour ago delivering the message to Karzai and the Afghan government that their internal corruption will end -- called UAW leaders and told them they were going to take major cuts and those cuts were going to stick in the long term.

    When they objected, they discovered GM and Chrysler would go into bankruptcy, the taxpayers' TARP money would be extracted first and they oould whistle for jobs, continued retirement benefits and all other benefits.

    By far the biggest direct sacrifice in getting those two companies through to rebuilding was by the workers and the bond holders.

    Stockholders may eventually be made whole, after the taxpayers are repaid.

    Simple reality, Sam. The reason the unions got so much control from the late 60s through the 70s, was weak corporate management.

    Every company was guilty of taking the easy road in negotiations. They allowed the unions to divide and conquer decade after decade.

    When GM ran the Fremont plant I walked the assembly line with a Vice President and watched a drug deal go down less than 30 feet from us.

    My reaction was to point it out.

    "Yes, I saw it too."

    "Why don't you get the union to put a stop to it?"

    I was more than outraged.

    "Because the tall guy doing the selling is the shop steward and we cannot touch him."

    No responsible businessman would have allowed that.

    In 1987, I was reorganizing a 45-employee operation, when I caught a part-time minimum wage worker trying to hand a baggie to another employee.

    They both went to jail immediately.

    That ended the problem.

    GM, Ford, Chrysler, American Motors all lacked the guts to be responsible.

    That is how the wrong people got control.

    It is unimaginable that Walter Reuther, or his brother, would have allowed drug dealing and use on the assembly line.

    By 1975, the only way to get a truly reliable "Company Executive" vehicle off any assembly line in America was to slow the operation on Wednesday morning when the most workers showed up and have a junior executive walk each car through, until they had the vehicles needed assembled properly.

    The company executives knew the problem and they were far more than 70% responsible.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Sun, Mar 28, 2010, at 12:52 PM
  • By the way, Backassward Enrique,

    You have as yet to come up with one FACT proving the libs were responsible for California's problems.

    The CalTrans highway system started falling apart in 1969 after Reagan took office, fired more than half of the road repair crews and replaced their payroll with Republican Party hacks in San Diego, Irine, Riverside, Indio, Pasadena, Bakersfield, Fresno, Ventura, San Louis Obispo, San Francisco, Sacramento and Redding.

    The political appointees sat on their rears, drank coffee and played poker in the lunch room.

    The eight county Northern California district superintendent was a friend.

    When snow plows were needed, he stripped every other operation to field enough plows just to keep major roads open.

    The working men were out in the blizzards plowing around Mt.Shasta, up the Feather River Canyon's Beckworth Pass, across the Intermountain Valley and across the Coast Range to Crescent City.

    The political hacks couldn't drive in the snow.

    That was when California Highways began to disintegrate.

    During the Reagan years.

    The situation worsened.

    CalTrans cut back on all highway operations, for new freeways north of the L.A. Basin or upgrading non-freeway roads.South of the Grapevine and Tejon Pass, non-stop construction.

    The professional planner staffs in the north were "tenured" and protected by statute.

    While my crew was installing new systems in the San Luis Obispo CalTrans Hqs., I watched from inside the ceiling while the entire planning staff played casino games in a hidden section of their office.

    There were more than two dozen highly paid engineers and draftsmen playing roulette, poker, craps and blackjack at 3 p.m.

    Even when we provided photos, nothing was done about it.

    The crew had to go back for warranty work about a year later and the casino was still in full operation.

    Them was facts Enrique, from the Reagan years as governor of California.

    Concurrently with the all-out conservative push for Prop. 13, which went in during Gov. Moonbeam's years.

    Moonbeam ended with huge surplusses in the state treasury, because he insisted "We must cut back."

    Now he's running for governor again, on his budget cutting populist agenda.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Sun, Mar 28, 2010, at 1:07 PM
  • Hey Cheesehead,

    Go to work. Work 80-120 hour weeks with three and four businesses at any time.

    Specialize in reorganizing distressed businesses in farming towns, mining towns, oil camps and even some big cities, from Cape Cod to San Diego, Orcas Island to Key West.

    Put a bed, clothes rod, business supplies and your self in a diesel, and travel Western U.S. highways for 12 years, with three to four month circuits.

    Actually take part in life, instead of watching NFL, MBL and NBA constantly, along with the game shows.

    It is surprising how much can get done, if you live every minute, accept every challenge and take risks.

    Or you can sit around, moan and grown, criticize and complain, blame everyone but yourself and absolutely know anyone with whom you disagree is wrong.

    Of course, you've never made an error in judgment in your life.

    As with every effective businessman or human I've known -- mistakes and failures are plumb effective teachers.

    Jay Bateman was graveyard shift supt. in the remote San Manuel copper mine in the southeast corner of Pinal County.

    Jay was a county commissioner for about 14 years, and was chairman of the board about a decade.

    At least three times weekly, he drove the 200-plus mile roundtrip to the Florence courthouse.

    Jay's graveyard shift at the mine outproduced the day and swing shifts -- often weeks ended with his crew outproducing both of the others.

    His management skills and leadership made a huge positive contribution in the county government.

    Every other shift superintendent in every other Arizona copper mine devoted his free time to golf, fishing, recreation and family fun.

    Funny, Jay accomplished more every week than any of them did in a month.


    I'm hoping for a reply from a major Persian Gulf engineering firm about manufacturing key equipment for earthquake proof homes in Haiti and Chile.

    No way in Hell will I live long enough to see it through. But, if we can get things started to build solid, safe homes for every Haitian family -- I'll be happy.

    May see part of a 2010 Final Four game. May not.

    It is all a matter of how you want to live your life.

    We all have an early choice.

    Use every minute or sleep a lot.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Mon, Mar 29, 2010, at 4:37 AM
  • Ironically, they are making a new Escape from _ movie. No joke.

    -- Posted by mccookreader on Mon, Mar 29, 2010, at 9:13 PM
  • One big problem with or analysis Iggy, THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Mon, Mar 29, 2010, at 10:54 PM

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Tue, Mar 30, 2010, at 5:52 PM
  • Guillermo,

    We, as human beings, are never to kill or murder our fellow human beings.


    God gave us dominion over the plants and animal, I believe that include the consumption of meat and the use of fur as clothing. Plants? Get real.


    Yes, even death row inmates.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Tue, Mar 30, 2010, at 8:45 PM
  • And He gave them the laws telling them what animals they could and could not eat. If they choose to strictly follow all His laws, they were considered righteous with God.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Tue, Mar 30, 2010, at 9:57 PM
  • *

    Brian - that was a very interesting article. Some of the comments following were interesting as well.

    I was talking to a client of mine the other day who is in a management position at one of the largest paving companies on the prairie. He told me that his, and most, large companies found in the U.S. that build and repair roads are owned by Europeans. Couple that with the Canadian mining companies owning huge amounts of the mineral rights in this country; Asian beef ranches by the score, gobbling up vast acreages of land; the burgeoning Japanese auto industry; etc, and you have yourself the making of one big melting pot of a global economy, right here in our backyard.

    I don't think there's really anthing to be done about it...but there it is.

    -- Posted by Mickel on Tue, Mar 30, 2010, at 10:17 PM
  • *

    ...who's Kip?...

    -- Posted by Mickel on Tue, Mar 30, 2010, at 10:27 PM
  • Guillermo,

    To get the whole context of what Solomon was writing about, you need to read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8. It is about a time for everything.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Tue, Mar 30, 2010, at 11:07 PM
  • Hey all you fiscally savvy conservatives,

    For decades we have shipped enormous fortunes overseas daily, in exchange for oil, automobiles, Electronic toys, solid state telephones,copper, zinc, moly, titanium, steel, rubber, coffee, tea, spices and sex toys.

    During the 70s, our All-American and Canadian company was kicking Ma Bell's behind with solid state NEC (Nippon Electronic Corp.) equipment.

    Western Electric had developed solid state gear,but the Bell System saw no reason to replace their old cross-bar equipment.

    During one six month period, we beat Ma Bell in open competition for more than a million dollars of our installations -- BECAUSE -- Their bids for the same jobs exceeded $5-Million.

    For a college, our switchboard required the bottom of a 4X5 closet, with a 1/8th hp. electric motor fan installed for cooling ventilation.

    Their cross-bar system required a large room, with heavy air conditioning.

    We used equipment from dozens of U.S. manufacturers at that time. Today, it would be virtually impossible to win bids and build any commercial electronics system with more than 20% U.S. made equipment.

    Backassward Enrique keeps insisting the U.S. is broke. Let him try to convince all the overseas investors from the Persian Gulf OPEC producers and the millions from around the world will will risk their lives for the opportunity to live in this "broke" nation.

    This is where the big money from overseas wants to invest. They have put more in China than they are comfortable with -- in point of fact,they are rather uncomfortable with that level of investment.

    The Brazilian economy can absorb no more. Europe has little room for major investments. India is not friendly to foreign investors.

    There is one preferred place to invest.


    You Neo-Cons keep trashing "Obamacare" and everything connected with this president.

    The major investors who filled vaults with oil proceeds rather than send any this way with DubYah in the White House are breaking down the doors to invest here -- "...with an intelligent president, who respects other people and their ideas, and respects the truth."

    That particular admirer is a BILLIONAIRE who has known the Bush family for decades and would not send a dime here from 2000 to 2009.

    Now, I suspect he is flying four engine jets loaded with pallets of cash into the U.S.

    Yes, he and others are buying America!!

    Why not, a bunch of jerks whose ancestors risked death to reach these shores keep selling the best nation on earth short.

    By the way, the wealthiest people from around the world are laughing at the Neo-con hysteria against the "most moderate" Health Care Reform just adopted.

    Their standard attitude -- A nation so rich should have the best preventative medicine program possible, and full medical and hospital service, without charge.

    There are people wanting to invest BILLIONS in U.S. farmland -- Corn, Wheat, Cotton, Soybean, Peanut, Citrus, Apple or ?? producing land.

    Anything Ted Turner has not already bought, they want. If Ted wants to sell and and buffalo, they'll buy.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Wed, Mar 31, 2010, at 12:12 AM
  • Cheesehead,

    You do have a way with the negative.


    A superfriend would be a native Egyptian who is one of the world's premiere plant geneticists -- with a PHd in plant genetics from UN-Lincoln.

    Absolutely one of the kindest, most decent men with a librarian wife to match.

    You've never heard of him, but you have probably eaten improved vegetables he developed.

    T. Marshall Hahn -- back in the 60s, the youngest major college president in history.

    When I refer to what ordinary people are doing to help ordinary people -- it is to emphasize the futility of those on here who only know how to criticize people who do something with their lives.

    Airheads who haven't had an original thought in their lifetimes and can only parrot some demagogue's rantings.

    People who hurl every imaginable slur against the elected President of the United States,without considering for a moment what he has accomplished against incredible odds since being elected.

    Unlike other new presidents, he discovered there was a total vacuum around the White House.

    DubYah was no longer involved or responsible.

    DubYah had shot his wad by stealing two elections with corrupt misconduct and getting this country in the worst mess in 80 years.

    The President-Elect had to obliquely suggest what the direction of the Presidency after Jan. 20, 2009.

    DubYah inherited a thriving economy, peace, a balanced budget and solid programs in place to pay off his father's record debts.

    DubYah left disaster, compounded by catastrophe, stacked atop calamity and heavily seasoned with graft and corruption.

    This "liberal" President today outlined a program of North Slope and East Coast Offshore Oil exploration.

    Protecting areas needing protection, but opening more drilling sites than the industry will be able to work for 30 years.

    No Republican president could hope to take that action and not create a firestorm. The man ripped daily on the GAZETTE's blogs is doing it.

    I was as skeptical of Candidate Obama as anyone.

    The GOP's nomination of McCain and his selection of Miz Sary for the V.P. slot had me seriously considering Ralph Nader or any other candidate.

    Results count.

    And this president is producing results.

    We have U.S. and NATO soldiers alive today because of him.

    There are dead and captured Al Qaeda and Taliban leaders now, because of him.

    There is a Nuclear Reduction Treaty ready to be approved and signed now, because of him.

    The last of our combat troops will be out of Iraq before September because of him.

    The Taliban is stopped and in retreat because of him.

    Bil Laden and his Al Qaeda leadership in the Afgh/Pak-istan region is in hiding because of him.

    You and the other negative thinkers want to criticize someone who continues working to make this world a better place after passing the "Four Score and Seven."

    Sitting on my rump and howling isn't going to help my grandchildren, or yours, or Sam's.

    The Detroit area investor who came up with a way for four senior ladies and one younger man to live more comfortable, secure and enjoyable lives -- although it gained him nothing but their friendship and only cost a little time --

    There's one of my superpeople. I've never met him, wouldn't know him if he stepped on my toes.

    His workable solution came out through one of our trade groups and is being applied across the nation.

    No profit, no gain, no Congressional honors -- but you can bet your bippy -- the man has a real sense of satisfaction from helping others.

    That's a super-people.

    Super-people don't sit around and hurl slurs and insults at those with whom they disagree.

    I disagree with Sam in his dogmatic, doctraineaire political mindset.

    I happen to honestly believe when the Gearjammer writes of his world and the real people in it -- he is an outstanding writer -- which is what drew me to this blog.

    But those who continually sell this country and its people short, crying and moaning, groaning and whining -- darn well earn my contempt.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Wed, Mar 31, 2010, at 4:50 PM
  • * really have to learn to just scroll by Hanks posts...they are the equivalent of cranial diarrhea. He gets overloaded with all this conflicting information, it directly clashes with his liberal programming and comes gushing out as an undigested, acid-laden, hershey squirt.

    Hank has forged forward through life in McGuyver fashion. Hank has done it all while wielding only paper clips and matchbooks. But I must say I appreciated your Forrest Gump analogy.

    If you really want to watch him giddy-up just ask "Hey, Hank; what's another word for Thesaurus?"

    -- Posted by Mickel on Wed, Mar 31, 2010, at 8:25 PM
  • Guillermo,

    The Bible is right.

    Exodus 20:13 (All NLT v2) "Do not murder"

    Deuteronomy 5:17 "You must not murder"

    Romans 13:9 "You must not murder"

    James 2:11 "you must not murder"

    As for stoning, I give you John 8:7, as the crowd was preparing to stone an adulterous woman, Jesus, as witnessed by the Apostle John, said, "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone".

    As for Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, the author, Solomon, tell an important story of Gods ultimate plan for us. We will all face incredible hardships, and with those hardships, with our faith in God, joy and peace will prevail, if you allow it.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Wed, Mar 31, 2010, at 9:12 PM
  • *

    CPB - You're talkin' to the wind on this one my brother.

    If you feel led by the Spirit to continue, let me bolster you with this: Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

    Don't forget boys, Jesus said that hating in your heart was akin to murder. Think there's been murder on these very threads?

    -- Posted by Mickel on Wed, Mar 31, 2010, at 9:48 PM
  • And let's not forget 1st Corinthians 4: 18-20.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Wed, Mar 31, 2010, at 10:14 PM

    Checked my Roget's, could not find the most accurate synonym for cranial constipation --


    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Thu, Apr 1, 2010, at 12:27 AM
  • *

    Why do Liberals spend so much time and effort telling religious people they are wrong? If they are wrong fine, let them be wrong. True many religious people also prosletyze but they are doing it in a perhaps misguided effort to help people and because their relgion tells them to. Is it helpful to compare Islam to werewolves?

    That said, I am not overly religious and am happy to let people be either religious or not as they see fit. However in this debate Guillermo correctly questions Chunky's statements although I thought he meant those as his precepts not how everyone interprets the Bible.

    I think Guillermo's logic is the flawed one in his response to Gouda. If God chooses to change his direction and opinion that doesn't mean he was wrong in the first place. There is nothing inherent in changing one's opinion that can only be supported by a wrong belief to begin with. Have you only ever changed your mind when you found yourself to be at fault?

    Again to take up Gouda's theme, to continue to assail Gouda with citations from the Old Testament which he states was overturned does nothing to show Christianity is flawed in my opinion.

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Thu, Apr 1, 2010, at 1:50 PM
  • Yes Guillermo,

    "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:12

    "He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:15

    "He who kidnaps a man... shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:16

    "He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:17

    God will put them to death, here on Earth, and eternally in Heaven.

    It is also becoming increasingly clear you do not understand the teachings of the Bible as you claim. Your claims to a Catholic education are clearly lacking as is exposed by your lack of understanding of Solomon's writings in Ecclesiastics.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Thu, Apr 1, 2010, at 3:09 PM
  • *


    Ah that ever popular expression of liberal free thought, if you don't want me to yell at you don't talk to me in the first place. Is that a fair summary of your last point? No room for allowing people to have different beliefs than you? If someone disagrees I must tell them they are personally wrong and need to be corrected?

    You are correct your logic is sound if you make certain assumptions. Your reasoning assumes that the Old testament is mistaken or that because something is wrong is the only reason to change. I'm sure others could interpret that as evidence that God's will is inscrutable not that he is wrong. Furthermore, I didn't see anyone here arguing that the Bible is the literal word of God nor that God is infallible other than you. I'm fine with people presenting an opposing view, I don't like those that feel satisfied only when they can attack others or tell them they are wrong. You say you don't want to correct others' beliefs but yet you feel you must inform them that they are wrong. I don't understand that, which is it?Live and let live is my motto. That seems to be one basic sticking points between religious folks and non-religious a belief God knows better than we, or a belief that we know better than God. It appears that because you believe the Bible to be written by men speading falsehoods that there is nothing of value in it.

    Let me know when you write your book with the Guillermo Proof that all religion is wrong and only he is right that brings peace to the earth, I want to get a first edition and be at the signing.


    I would disagree judging from the responses on these blogs, arguing with people who make sweeping generalizations is not only popular but could be on its way to becomming and Olympic sport.

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Thu, Apr 1, 2010, at 4:25 PM
  • Yes Iggy, you are ignorant of the Bible. God did not command killing as you attempted to take the verse out of context. It was Solomon's warning to future generations of mankind to not make the mistakes the past generations made. If you read all of Ecclesiastes, instead of a very few handpicked verses, you would know that.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Thu, Apr 1, 2010, at 6:05 PM
  • Iggy,

    I did not say anything about the Old Testament being erroneous. I was merely pointing out YOU were erroneous in your out of context quoting of the book of Ecclesiastes.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Thu, Apr 1, 2010, at 6:27 PM
  • Yes, and you would not have known that if I had not pointed that out.

    Thank you

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Thu, Apr 1, 2010, at 6:36 PM
  • *

    You're right Senior, it is just as questionable, which is why it's called FAITH. I disagree with mocking people for their faith or telling them they are wrong, I believe everyone should be able to believe what they want without my interference which is why I don't naysay your robotopia.


    When have I ever told you that you are incorrect in your faith? Why would you say I can't tolerate you? All I said was that it is ill form to go about telling people they are wrong. If I am wrong fine let me be wrong, I'm happy letting you be wrong if you are.

    You are making arguments where I have not. So according to you, a person can only be a Christian if they profess that the Bible is the LITERAL WORDS OF GOD with no intervention from man? I never made that claim. All I argued was that assuming God changed his mind on what the rules should be doesn't mean that He was wrong initially which is what you seemed to be arguing. I said one can change without having been wrong, to which you said you only ever change your mind when you were proven to be wrong.

    I don't know if God is perfect or not, I don't really think it is my place to judge.

    What it boils down to for me is this. It's fine for you to hate Christians or Muslims or whoever for thier faith. I just don't think it is necessary to go around telling them they are wrong. That's all, just some kindness and respect.

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 10:13 AM
  • *


    Sorry about you thinking I was putting words into your mouth, at that point I was meaning a general you not the specific you (Guillermo) and I can see how I didn't make that clear.

    When I asked when I disparaged your faith I meant that as rhetorical so that perhaps you would reflect and realize I had not. I meant that as a criticism of your methods.

    "In fact, when I said it was you and those like you who are the intolerant bunch...challenges their religion"

    Ok let me get this straight: when you said me specifically you didn't really mean me specifically? I'm so confused. These types of gross generalization is probably my biggest complaint about these types of boards which is why I try to avoid it and speak specifically as possible.

    "Neither did I. I never wrote nor said nor have believed any thing like that."

    "Samuel 22:31: "As for God his way is perfect."

    Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

    You don't have to argue God is perfect SW, by calling yourself Christian you have accepted and acknowledged that God is perfection."

    Sure maybe I read too much into your comments but when you go using scripture to belittle and argue that I must be a hypocrit if I don't adhere to every passage of the Bible as literal truth, I think you might be able to see where I'd make that mistake. You clearly said that a Christian must acknowlegde that god is perfection after using two passages to make the claim, I don't think I made an invalid inference that you were arguing that to believe that I had to accept those passages.

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 1:40 PM
  • *


    I'm not even really sure where this got so off topic. I never said I was or wasn't contradicting the Bible, I don't even remember saying I am a Christian here. All I was contending that you didn't present a convincing argument about ONE specific example. You then took off on an entire rant about Christianity. I don't feel that it is my place to either attack or defend an entire religion.

    So if I understand your posts correctly, you are now saying that for anyone to be a Christian they must subscribe to all passages in the Bible, in its entirety especially passages that seem contratictory? You say that a person can't consider themselves belonging to any group unless they are 100% in line with all tenets? It's all or nothing with you huh?

    I agree it IS laughable when someone labels someone else with terms that person wouldn't choose for himself. I find it ironic that you make that claim after labelling me several times with labels I have not chosen. I think the only thing I have ever called you was Liberal which you agreed with, if not let me know and I'll stop calling you a Liberal.

    The hubris that you project is what bothers me the most. You feel no compunction about labelling others and ascribing to them thoughts or feelings they haven't expressed. You proclaimed yourself the authority on what a person can believe or call themselves when you state what a Christian must believe according to your interpretation but then become indignant when others "try to label" you.

    A final question I would like you to consider:

    Guillermo, why are you so intolerant?

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 3:06 PM
  • *

    Why did that make you spit out your coffee? I don't think you understood. I was speaking to a general audience not making generalizations about any particular audience. Do you not see the difference?

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 3:08 PM
  • "(and Chunk with his "thou shalt not kill ever," silliness)". Try "Thou shalt not kill, ever", that is if accuracy is you goal. As I recall, we were having a Biblical discussion on murder or killing, and you inadvertently found a passage in the Bible that you felt would further your agenda against Christianity. You got caught in your own web of deceit, as you cannot prove any contradictions from God in the Bible.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 3:12 PM
  • *


    See my follow up, do you see no difference between speaking to a general audience and making generalizations about a specific audience?

    Well, you did label me a Christian, you have labeled me Conservative in other posts so for you to say you haven't labeled me is inaccurate, would you rather I believe you a liar or that you have a bad memory?

    You are so EXTREMELY tolerant that you feel it neccessary to go about telling other people they are wrong, especially Christians. You can't allow them to be wrong quietly. Yep you are right that is the very definition of tolerance.

    Again I think you need to go back and see what source we are talking about, I don't think I ever made any claims about the Bible in this whole dialogue, I have seen you make many claims about what is right and wrong though.

    When you tell others how to think you are claiming to be an authority, whether you realize it or not. You are not content to share your opinion, you tell others they are wrong, there is a difference. Although you have shown you are not very good at picking up fine distinction so maybe you don't understand.

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 3:38 PM
  • *

    If Chunk failed, did you succeed?

    -- Posted by SWNebr Transplant on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 3:38 PM
  • What error?

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 5:40 PM
  • And what is the error? I do not see anywhere in the Bible, Old or New Testaments, that God commands His people to kill one another.

    Thou shalt not kill or you must not murder, take you pick, they mean the same thing. Is your impediment reading, or comprehension?

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 8:37 PM
  • An idiot or a goon? Read through the 10 Commandments, Exodus 20:1-17, and Deuteronomy 5:7-21. Killing a fellow human would not even be considered if only they were followed. Man was not able to follow those laws, given to us by God through Moses. That's when Christ Jesus, you know, the one who Christians bear the name, stepped in, and gave us a New Covenant. Read Matthew 5:21-22, He, Jesus, took it a step further, saying not only is murder wrong, so is holding a grudge. The Old Testament rules still stand, especially if you're Jewish, or perhaps a Jehovah's Witness, but I'll put my faith and obedience in Jesus Christ.

    So don't murder, Guillermo. Unless of course, you are without sin.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM
  • Guille and Chunky,

    You ought to hug each other in small c christian brotherhood before you fell each other with words. There's just too much *****-envy sub-text in these postings. The Romans would just throw you to the lions at this point. Res Just

    -- Posted by Resilient Justice on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 9:57 PM
  • Oh yeah? I've got the bigger ***** here!

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 9:59 PM
  • I may have to concede a little to you Gee-air-mo. But help me with this one, where in the New Testament is there an time for murder?

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 10:07 PM
  • Chunk,

    Thanks for clarifying the situation. I suppose someone out there will take your word for it.

    Here's a very cool music video called "Compliments" by Band of Horses. It should distract you a bit from yourself.

    Res Just

    -- Posted by Resilient Justice on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 10:19 PM
  • Chunk -- good question. I found two passages in the New Testament testifying to times when murder is OK. As you'll read, this is highly problematic.

    Luke said:

    19:26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

    He was referring to heretics.

    And there is this passage:

    Romans 1:29 :They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

    Res Just

    -- Posted by Resilient Justice on Fri, Apr 2, 2010, at 10:25 PM
  • Hey folks,

    Why debate religious sanctification of homicide?

    I've provided a soluemn tribute to those wonderful Conservative Republicans who brought us the 2000 Floridan and 2008 Ohio elections.

    Wanted to share the thought with Mike and followers, especially all you Socialists and Communists.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Sat, Apr 3, 2010, at 2:35 AM
  • Res Just,

    Your quote from Luke 19:26, is part of the parable of the king and his ten servants Jesus told. It is a story of the gift of God, and how we are to grow it, and not hide out of fear of losing it.

    As for Romans 1:29, you really have to go all the way back to verse 20 and start reading to get the full context of what Paul was saying. The death of the non-believer.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sat, Apr 3, 2010, at 10:55 AM
  • The virility of a Latin gigolo? I guess I don;t know what a Laotian brings to the table, but my wife is of Irish descent, I'm sure our marital sparks fly due to that. Other than that, once I get home from work, I'm horny.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sat, Apr 3, 2010, at 10:59 AM
  • Chunk,

    I hope you're not espousing "the death of non-believers." That would not be very small c christian of you. As for your other comment, I think Guille's "aging house cat" is either a propos or just plain funny. Thanks for the entertainment factor this Easter holiday.

    -- Posted by Resilient Justice on Sat, Apr 3, 2010, at 12:48 PM
  • Res Just,

    Take the to read Romans 1:20-29, then comment.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sat, Apr 3, 2010, at 8:12 PM
  • Chunk,

    I did read Romans 1:18-32. It's certainly a problematic text that advocates for the death or killing of different kinds of people for different reasons. Luckily, both our legal system and our more progressive notions for how to deal with difference are much more humane and just than what is offered in Romans. Here is the text from the New Testament. Res Just

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    -- Posted by Resilient Justice on Sun, Apr 4, 2010, at 1:11 PM
  • Very good guys, your ignorance of the Faith shine on. If you have spent any time at all studying the Holy Bible, instead of Google searching, you would know we will suffer thought two deaths. The first a physical death, one we as the Faithful don't fear. For the unfaithful, this is truly the end, one they fear the most. The second death is the spiritual death, also known as the judgement. This is where our works, faith, and obedience while one Earth is judged by God. This is where our following the 10 Commandments, our following the teaching of Christ Jesus, and our acceptance of the letters of instruction of Paul, through Jesus, comes into play. This second death is the one the non-believers hope doesn't exist.

    We all know we are going to die from this Earth. The deaths the Bible tell of is the life or death of our spirits. Do we live on eternally, or are we completely dead, physically and spiritually, 30 seconds after our last breath.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sun, Apr 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM
  • Chunk,

    I sincerely hope that you did something good, creative, or interesting today to improve the condition of humanity because you seem worried about the condition of your spirit once you cease to be. I'm not sure that simply reading the Bible and telling the rest of us to do so will help you accomplish the end you seek.

    Here is one response to your question. Men who physically die while copulating do so knowing that they'll possibly live on in the genetic make-up they have just given up. I'm not sure what the timing of that might be, 30 seconds or more or less.

    Res Just

    -- Posted by Resilient Justice on Sun, Apr 4, 2010, at 8:28 PM
  • Res Just,

    Yes, I try to do something to improve humanity every day. Whether it's keeping my ear and eyes open for someone who's cupboards are bare, for which I happen to volunteer my time in our church's food pantry. Or conveying information from my life's history, and how they relate to the teaching in the Bible, to teach my children right from wrong.

    I don't think I ever said reading the Bible is the only way to salvation, it does help. As you should know, it is accepting Christ Jesus as our savior, faith that God created us and we are all part of His grand design, and obeying all the teachings of Jesus.

    As for your last paragraph, it an incoherent rambling, and I will leave as that.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sun, Apr 4, 2010, at 9:35 PM
  • Gearjammer,

    Consider what a serious researcher is saying about this dying nation.

    ".....the U.S. remains a magnet for immigrants. Global attitudes about immigration are diverging, and the U.S. is among the best at assimilating them (while China is exceptionally poor).

    As a result, half the world's skilled immigrants come to the U.S. As Kotkin notes, between 1990 and 2005, immigrants started a quarter of the new venture-backed public companies.

    The United States already measures at the top or close to the top of nearly every global measure of economic competitiveness.

    A comprehensive 2008 Rand Corporation study found that the U.S. leads the world in scientific and technological development.

    The U.S. now accounts for a third of the world's research-and-development spending.

    Partly as a result, the average American worker is nearly 10 times more productive than the average Chinese worker, a gap that will close but not go away in our lifetimes.

    This produces a lot of dynamism. As Stephen J. Rose points out in his book "Rebound: Why America Will Emerge Stronger From the Financial Crisis," the number of Americans earning between $35,000 and $70,000 declined by 12 percent between 1980 and 2008.

    But that's largely because the number earning over $105,000 increased by 14 percent. Over the past 10 years, 60 percent of American adults made more than $100,000 in at least one or two of those years, and 40 percent had incomes that high for at least three.

    As the world gets richer, demand will rise for the sorts of products Americans are great at providing -- emotional experiences.

    Educated Americans grow up in a culture of moral materialism; they have their sensibilities honed by complicated shows like "The Sopranos," "The Wire" and "Mad Men," and they go on to create companies like Apple, with identities coated in moral and psychological meaning, which affluent consumers crave.

    As the rising generation leads an economic revival, it will also participate in a communal one. We are living in a global age of social entrepreneurship.

    In 1964, there were 15,000 foundations in the U.S. By 2001, there were 61,000.

    In 2007, total private giving passed $300 billion. Participation in organizations like City Year, Teach for America, and College Summit surges every year. Suburbanization helps. For every 10 percent reduction in population density, the odds that people will join a local club rise by 15 percent. The culture of service is now entrenched and widespread.

    In sum, the U.S. is on the verge of a demographic, economic and social revival, built on its historic strengths.

    The U.S. has always been good at disruptive change. It's always excelled at decentralized community-building. It's always had that moral materialism that creates meaning-rich products. Surely a country with this much going for it is not going to wait around passively and let a rotten political culture drag it down.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Tue, Apr 6, 2010, at 11:17 AM
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