Musical Hope & Party Hardy

Sam, just for fun, you know that G-man never watches anything but MSNBC in his room in his mother's basement. He thinks it's the only channel on cable, that along with Comedy Central. He's still working on getting that Goggle thing to work right and do research on his own on his trips to the public library.

Yes, that blasted deficit spending has tripled under the Bamster, and Hillary begs the Chinese for more, and when that doesn't work the Bamster bows to their Premier! Funny how Obama and the Dems who voted for all that spending under Bush are suddenly absolved... Oh, and Dodd and Frank, who said that Freddie/Fannie were fine and should just keep making all those insolvent loans to people who couldn't afford them -- where are they now?

Guillermo - there are many sources, here is one from the New York Slimes:

www.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/business/01le...

Hey Mark - I tell you how bad Obama is, I actually miss Bill Clinton.

The Democrats have yet to be called into account for the Frannie and Freddie debacle. They were behind the whole thing, and let's not forget Franklin Rains, one of Obama's buddies that raked a cool ninety million from Frannie while driving it bankrupt.

George Soros and Hugo Chavez have yet to be investigated for helping making a run on our market system right before last election, which resulted in the TARP disaster.

The Democrats will not investigate, becuase it helped them attain power, and of course, power is god to them.

Gawd, wouldn't it be nice if everyone had to pay taxes in the method of the self employed. The Democrats would be finished tomorrow!

Many Republicans criticized Bush when he spent money like a Democrats. The libs/progressives conveniently forget that fact.

See Sam ole Boy, how hard is that? Add a link (a working one please), and people can check to see that you are really the intellectual you say you are, without doing your work for you.

Sadly, Obama's administration got their figures wrong, and the economy was much worse than they had thought. You are right, that doesn't help the 2.5 million more people without jobs. My hope is that he is proactive in dealing with this. If his record says anything so far, it at least says he takes swift and decisive action. We will see.

Ha

maybe some wag could turn Amazing Waste into the earthers theme song!

later

Sam, making veiled accusations that the world's leaders took advantage of the services of prostitutes is, even for you, a new low.

I do have to admit that I like this post, as you indict our administration for the cost of this trip and for the loss of employment for your colleagues. Having been through the process of having to find new work myself I certainly empathize with these men and your post got me thinking about irresponsible governmental action and it's impact on the population of our country.

Let's start with the frivolous use of military aircraft.

flight time from our nation's capitol to Copenhagen: 8 hrs 48 min.

http://www.luftgrop.com/za/calculate.cgi...

this results in a cost (assuming you didn't just make up the 9k/hr figure) of $78,750 per trip. (one way)

An actual figure of the number of jets used was unavailable

Flight time to Iraq (Baghdad specific time unavailable) from Chicago (closest city to Whitman air force base in MO with flight time available) 13.5 hrs.

http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/flight_ti...

Flight time from Kansas City (60 minutes from Whitman AFB) to St. Louis .5 hrs

This gives us a flight time from Whitman AFB to Iraq of 13 hrs.

I am no expert, but the transport and bombing flights that the air force launches from Whitman are more than 9k trips. Since I am no expert, though, we will use the conservative figure of 9k per one way trip. This sets our cost at:

117,000k per trip (one way)

BTW more bomber missions flew round trip from MO to Iraq than from DC to Copenhagen...ALOT more

Just a taste there pal, which stat of yours ya want raked over the coals next?

Oh, and I almost forgot...yes, God should bless America.

God bless America

Carl, how much do you think it cost Bush to "land" on that aircraft carrier with the big "Mission Accomplished" banner shining behind him?

Possibly off topic somewhat, but here is a powerful video that conservatives should find encouraging.

American Rising

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZs8k4pJc...

More reckless wasteful destruction of life in the name of secular humanistic fundamentalism:

"California's Proposition 71 Failure"

Bioethics: Five years after a budget-busting $3 billion was allocated to embryonic stem cell research, there have been no cures, no therapies and little progress. So supporters are embracing research they once opposed.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis...

Frankly rendition and profiling should be taken to the next level to protect us from the terrorists that would blow a plane load of innocents out of the sky, bomb a shoppers market,

or a bus load of children.

An Eye for an Eye.

loose the dogs of war.

Nah, we have better weapons then they do, we win.

Hey Fundin, how well did the better weapons of the British work during the revolutionary war? Poorly, convential weapons will absolutely not win a war against non convential forces.

In regards to stepping up profiling and rendition, I have a question for you...were you born hating Muslims? I imagine the answer is no as racism and hatred are learned traits, they must be taught and reinforced. Muslims are not born with "death to America" on their lips, they must be recruited, indoctrinated, and trained. Recruiting, obviously, is the first step and to recruit you must have propaganda. Profiling, rendition, and torture are pretty high on the anti-America propaganda wish list.

Ignorant thoughts like the ones you just posted and the actions they spur will have absolutely no positive effect on reducing terrorism. Rather than reducing the threat, actions like thus serve to elevate the threat.

Try thinking on occasion, it feels nice.

God bless America

Carl, I merely pointed out the gross hypocrisy of Obama in saying that Rendition was an evil to be ended and then he flip flops and decides he want to keep it?! Don't get mad at me, he is one who lied to you.

As for supposed "kidnapping" and "torture"; as someone who served in the Army, waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and other methods of enhanced interrogation are routinely used in training in case of capture. Are you really saying that the U.S. Government tortures its own soldiers for training purposes? Pardon my incredulity at that sort of "logic". By the way, what you falsely call "kidnapping" is used by all nations at WAR...

Next, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you really saying that enhanced interrogation methods are the same as or worse than the genocide of unborn children? Please tell me I misunderstood you. If I am correct, then you sir are the judgmental hypocrite. In either case, I do recognize the existence of your soul, but am not sure of the place it is headed.

Humor me, but after this exchange I must ask you, when you close with "God", please tell me what you mean -- the God of Star Wars, deism, pantheism, kumbaya, or the Bible?

Carl

We are at war with fanatics, who hate our very existance.

the techniques our people use on them pale in comparison to the horrible vile things these animals inflict on their victims.

Point your vitriol at them.

The jihadist don't fear us yet, that needs to be changed.

why should god bless only america?

Sam and Company,

Where were the neo-con complaints when Poppa Bush flew to Japan with a major entourage, so he could vomit all over his host?

Where were you when Nixon zipped down to Bebe Rebozo's Florida estate for repeated vacations and long weekends during his tenure.

Where were you when Ronnie and Nancy were spending close to ten per cent of his eight years at the Santa Barbara ranch. {Which along with the all-electric Pacific Palisades house and the San Clemente estate -- were purchased for the Reagans via a syndicate of their billionaire friends -- along with the super luxurious Sacramento mansion Nancy had to have -- refusing to live in the Governor's Mansion. A mansion close to the office wasn't good enough, she wanted a view of the river.]

Where were you when Poppa Bush took Air Force One and Two, plus a half dozen support jets to the Persian Gulf for the Saudi King's birthday bash?

Nothing mundane like a global environmental conference -- A really important Birthday Party for an old and really close family friend.

We've seen endless moaning about the "demands" of third world countries upon the E.U. and U.S. during the Copenhagen sessions.

However, not a word, about how the U.S President, solidly backed by House and Senate leaders, politely but firmly told those folks they were out of luck with those demands.

By the way, the developed nations, the E.U., U.S., Russia and Japan had already agreed what their help would consist of -- and the "demanders" you love to cite, learned the deal was "Take this or leave it."

As if the mindless caterwauling about Copenhagen isn't enough in light of the decades of Republican Presidents fully using all the perks of office.

We still have nonsense about the President who was in office for eight years having no responsibility for the financial disaster. Even to the point of blaming Pres. Obama for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's problems created during that era. And all of a sudden, supposedly an Obama appointee ripped off taxpayers for $90-Million.

What about the PROVEN $1-Billion plus Merrill-Lynch management awarded themselves for bankrupting their company just before BofA bought the remaining shell?

Sorry Sam and Company, but the bail-outs, a la TARP were the creation of DubYah and his appointee, the former head of Lehman Brothers, where he laid the groundwork for bankruptcy and total collapse before slipping off to Washington. The irony, Lehman Brothers directors voted him a big, fat bonus -- not that long before they realized they were bankrupt. In fact, they were the first, and because of his direct ties, he could not get them a bail-out -- It was not politically possible.

Of course, Afghanistan's Karsai, the hand-picked president Bush put into power, just this week described the hundreds of American lives and hundreds of billion of dollars, weapons, equipment, economic aide, etc. -- as being a "little help."

If it weren't for the Pakistani nuclear arsenal, largely developed with Bush/Cheney in office, a lot of folks would be in favor of picking up our "little help" and bringing our people home.

We keep hearing about how much better off we would be with President McCain. I'm sure his first wife, who was abed in the cancer ward when he handed her the divorce papers, would like to hear your ideas on McCain's high moral values. His record, crashing five Navy Jets before heading to Nam, then getting shot down and making propaganda films for North Viet Nam from the Hanoi Hilton.

Other prisoners, such as Edward Alvarez, who was held longer than any other POW, never made propaganda films. Guess they weren't GOP heroes.

But leaving the wife and kids on the mainland, while shacked up with a young blonde heiress in Hawaii, reinforced tthe GOP concept for hero.

Just as Air National Guard time is much more heroic than an actual combat veteran who is awarded the nation's second highest military honor. [By the way, do any of you military combat experts have any idea of the investigations which are conducted before any service awards either the Congressional Medal of Honor or one of the Service Crosses?

Sgt. York spent nearly a month being questioned, taking brass out to the battleground repeatedly, walking them through what happened.

He had to fire at every kind of target know to man with his '03 Springfield repeatedly to convince people he really could shoot that well. The men in his outfit were taken out one-by-one, from privates through all the company grade officers and required to tell the story over and over.

The German prisoners he took were questioned.

The Military Crosses are only slightly less demanding for complete verification -- only about three levels of investigation -- compared to five.

Yet, the sanctified jassonkeys continue claiming John Kerry's Navy Cross was a phony medal.

Well boys, if John McCain's daddy and granddaddy had not been admirals, there is a strong chance he would have faced court martial for his collaboration with the enemy.

Now, his legacy for the GOP is the ongoing soap opera involving Alaska's early-retiring former governor, her high class family, feud with McCain's staff and grand book-signing tour.

Michael Steele authors his book describing how the GOP abused power when they had control and failed in their moral and constitutional responsibility.

The National GOP Party Chairman can see that reality, but Sam and Company have better information.

Will someone run up to the Black Hills this coming summer and locate the lodge where Calvin Coolidge spent the entire summer fishing, out of contact with his White House staff, Congress and the rest of the government he was being paid to head?

I just love it when the lectures start about Republican responsibility.

Obama continuing his Hawaiian vacation after the Christmas Day "crotch bombing" attempt, not addressing the nation for three days when he had all the information.

DubYah staying on his vacation at the time of the "shoe bomber," and never directly referred to the event.

DubYah continuing to read to children for a half hour after word of the 9/11 attacks, instead of getting aboard Air Force One and getting airborne.

Also, Crank, I would vastly prefer the prez vomiting on the japanese to the current bozo apologizing to the world!

Hank -- It's Ok, but I think you need to get out more....

Besides all the numerous omissions you left out about the libs/progressives/statists in recent memory, revisionist history, and possibly a whopper about McCain's wife (try googling Newt Gingrich), I am impressed in how much research you devoted to the topic, or was it from rote memory?

The more Obama's popularity and health-despair poll numbers tank, the more the hysteria ramps up on the Left. However, that being said, let me profusely say that, I stand in solidarity with all you Leftist comrades concerning all the lies the Bamster has told all of us. Yes, pitchforks it is -- Impeach!

Here's one of my favorite quotes from rote memory, which fits well here:

"What Can Men Do Against Such Reckless Hate!" - - King Theoden, Lord of the Rings

Haha, great point bigdawg. Let's adopt the terrorists morality, the right wing never ceases to trip all over their fake religious beliefs.

Who was talking about the most recent one? Crank is the one that brought up Poppa Bush! Can you try a little harder to keep up?

Point still stands, better to vomit on a japanese than apologize to the muslim world!

Crank doesn't differentiate one republican president from the other. He even hates Coolidge for single-handedly causing the Depression. Never mind that he was out of office when Crank was born! Put any name out there and put an R after it, and Crank hates em!

Like, no democrat ever caused anyone to lose their job!

Like, no democrat ever become enough of a crook to lose his love!

Like, no democrat ever did anything he couldn't blame on a republican if it went in the toilet!

You didn't say that Mark! Bush? Right? Get ready for the whipping, dog. As soon as the lefties get their breath back!

Jeeeeez, Joe Buck is back. This discussion will be crapped to death in no time. Hi, Cartman!

Oh, I forgot, how can I blame Bush for torturing me, he wasn't even president back then? Darn it, I'll bet Cheney wasn't even VP either. How about Rumsfeld? I'll check to see if Bush was Governor of Washington State back then, or something. Is Texas part of the Republic?

Don't worry comrades, I've got to do it, I'll...I'll find a way to blame him! I'll do it, I swear.... I know, ....it must have been Rove - - sneaky little devil....

Now that Obama has accepted Rendition I suppose not even the ACLU will take my torture case. It'll be tied up at Eric Holder's office for years, or at a minimum, until Obama is run out in 2012 or impeached. Pro bono anyone?

Ahh Joe and Mark, yet another couple of idiots in the dumb parade, we all will do just as well to buckle up and enjoy the ride as this conversation goes spiraling down the crapper.

(yes, I really did insult your intelligence this time Mark, Joe's too, and after "ya'll's" posts today I am absolutely sure that it is warranted...vindication is sweet tasting in triumph).

Res Ipsa Loquitur

I like Mark too, despite his proclivity for less than intelligent posts.

GI - Sour grapes because of Obama's and your Leftist Progressive agenda being flushed down the toilet in front of your eyes must be difficult to swallow! Victory and vindication of truth is sweet! 2010 is coming, so hang on tight to your red Che beret!

Maybe someday you guys will be able to actually refute my simple, but sarcastic rebuttal to the hysteria and ignorance on the Left about Rendition, and enhanced interrogations. Obama has lied to you and you swallowed his tripe hook, line, and sinker. Oh, the hypocrisy! Until we meet again!

Well, you should understand my pain then Mark. Bush Inc., ended up being the worst liars in US presidential history...especially when they spent more than any previous admin in history, and sold the country to communists. That had to have hurt, so you should be sympathetic.

GI -- I do feel your pain, but only in as far as Obama has proved to be more of a lair in his first year than Bush was in eight.

I am also glad that we do agree on how Rendition isn't illegal, and that enhanced interrogations are not torture. I knew we'd find some common ground someday!

That should have read "rendition is abominable, and should be illegal..."

apologies

I would make a distinction in training for the armed services, or for civilian police forces/intelligence collection services. For example, I don't find the practices of the Army Survival School, or the training of elite forces like the Navy Seals to be immoral. What has the propensity for immorality is the manner in which the armed services/civilian police forces are deployed and utilized.

"...western abortionists have legalized the genocide of our own children."

First, abortion is not genocide. And uh, that is not why they dislike us. Nice try at revisionist history though. You'd have been a hit in Germany in the 1930's.

You voluntered for the training and could have said no at any time so dont give me that line about how you were tortured.

"Since enhanced interrogation in training is supervised and enhanced interrogations of enemy combatants in a time of war are supervised, then it follows that they both are legal and that the latter is even more so."

Absolutely wrong. If our government allows enhanced interrogation to persist, which we all know is a euphemism for torture, then we as Americans are all diminshed. Training our servicemen and women to endure torture at the hands of a less moral enemy is one thing, but stooping to that level ourselves is inexcusable and wrong.

lets see, we have

1. interrogation

2. enhanced interrogation

3. Super enhanced interrogation

4. super duper enhanced interragation

5. extra super duper enhanced interragation

6. delux extra super duper enhanced interragation

where does it end? At least none if it would be called torture. What a joke

What im saying is you can polish a turd all you want. You know whay you got when you are done polishing?

Laws are drafted and sorted out by politicians, judges, lawyers, and such. My point is that under Bush and now Obama, the enhanced interrogations that were used are still considered legal.

reminds me of an old german poem

First the came for the communists and I said nothing, I was not a communist

Next they came for the trade unionists and I said nothing, i was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews and I said nothing, I was not a jew.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything.

The majority of the people who go into that kind of training know what they are getting into and choose to do it. They dont take you to basic training and water board you. Another point is that the people who have had this done to them call it torture. Not enhanced interrogation.

You are simply comapring apples to oranges. It is not the same thing no matter how many times you post here that it is. Saying it over and over does not make it the same.

I guess the golden rule is something you dont believe in. Perhaps yours is do unto others as they are doing to you. Is that really how you live your life? Someone dings your car door so you ding theirs? Someones dog craps in your yard so you go crap in theirs? Yours is a sad sad life.

GI -- once again what you call "torture" is not defined as such either by our military, government, past or present, or in the international conventions I have looked at. You too, suffer from the dawg syndrome in that you are trying to make a personal opinion into the law of the land. This in spite of the fact that people from opposite ends of the political spectrum agree it is NOT torture.

I believe abortion in the U.S. is genocide, but for now it is still legal. I will continue to work to change that law through the system we have. Especially since the unborn are totally defenseless and the most vulnerable of all people. When they come to force me to be complicit in abortion against my religious convictions then I will accept the consequences of disobeying that law.

dawg -- repeating your opinion over and over does not make true either, and you are the one comparing apples to oranges. I can call listening to MSNBC torture, and it is terribly uncomfortable like waterboarding is, but that doesn't necessarily make it truly torture. I only applied the rule of law to a situation which you don't like, but for whatever it is worth, many on both sides of the ideological isle agree it is NOT TORTURE.

You also still stubbornly fail to see the fallacy in your lack of common sense in that, whether you refuse to believe it not, waterboarding is used in military training and it is not "torture" as defined under the conventions of war. Otherwise, your progressive messiah wouldn't use it either.

If we were "doing unto others" in your "logic" we would be slicing off body parts one by one, pulling out fingernails, raping their wives in front of them, and such. Those are the apples and oranges in the real world you refuse to acknowledge. Do you see the fallacy of your comparison? Your worldview is one of arrogant self righteousness in believing that there can be no international guidelines to follow in war -- only your own. You need to come out of your cocoon. We could also follow your incremental approach to self destruction by becoming an isolationist backwater in the real world where evil flourishes. Sit back in your recliner, entertain yourself, and let others try to make the world a better place for all people.

"Republican presidential candidate John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, considers waterboarding a form of torture. McCain has been quoted as saying that waterboarding is "no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/0...

Let's see, whom shall I believe? Mark, the utterly irrational blogger who knows nothing about being a POW and being tortured or John McCain who actually was tortured as a POW?

"I believe abortion in the U.S. is genocide, but for now it is still legal."

First of all, it was a Supreme Court decision, not a law. In fact, what the decision did was make it illegal for state's to prohibit or restrict abortions during the first trimester. You might want to know something about what you are trying to change, before you set about trying to change it.

Also, how can you not see the ridiculous and widespread hypocrisy that you are guilty of?

Exhibit 1: your belief is that abortion is morally wrong, but it is allowed by our government, therefore, ostensibly it is legal. Your opinion in this matter is that it is immoral and should be illegal, and you are outraged that others do not see it your way and persist in seeking or supporting abortions. You feel justified in speaking out against it, as per your first amendment rights...

My belief is that enhanced interrogation techniques are torture and torture is clearly illegal. But since enhanced interrogations are allowed by our government, therefore, ostensibly the methods are legal. My opinion in this matter (like yours regarding abortion)is that enhanced interrogation is immoral and should be illegal, and I am outraged that others do not see it my way and persist in using or supporting the use of these techniques. I feel justified in speaking out against it, as per my first amendment rights.

So, your argument that I am "trying to make my opinion the law of land," is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO REGARDING ABORTION. Fool.

And by the way, Nigeria is locked in a religious war, secular fundamentalists (which is a completely meaningless term by the way) are the least of Nigeria's concerns. Rather, it is God (the idea of God that is), once again, causing war, destruction, and death.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/spec...

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-bea...

Mancow is a conservative radio DJ who was trying to prove waterboarding is not torture by allowing himself to be waterboarded. It didn't work out the way he planned.

"So, get back to me with your faux moral outrage when you begin to respect all human life..."

I will ask the same of you. When you care about people outside of the womb as much as pretend to care about fetuses in the womb, then you can preach to me.

"Your secular humanistic fundamentalism..."

Doesn't something have to have a dogma and organization in order for its followers to be fundamentalists? Screwball.

"Yours is the rank religion of moral relativism..."

You are wrong again (a predictable pattern of yours). I am no moral relativist. And I will thank you to not tell me what I believe (it doesn't reflect very well on your intelligence either).

"Are you absolutely sure there is no righteous God?"

No, that is what I have been telling you, but you are too obstinate to actually listen.

Guille,

Didn't you mean "goofball" rather than "screwball" in this last post? You usually go with that one. Some lighthearted late night conversation is in order on this blog. Res Just.

Isn't it the funniest thing. The Most liberal State is about to lose it's most Sacred Senate Seat to a no name Republican.

I bet the DNC in Massachusetts is drinking Pepto Bismol out of the bottle.

Pro Lifers

Don't be discouraged or silenced by some of the bitter, angry, irrational, and misleading posts on these threads. Remember, no matter how much false and relative morality is preached from the altar of secular humanistic fundamentalism, we have science, our conscience, common sense, and even God's moral authority on our side. Working in health care I have seen the incredible advances in medical imagery that now allow women to see stunning details of their unborn children. Even just this technology alone has increasingly proven to pregnant women beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are indeed carrying an unborn child in their womb, even from the first trimester. More are starting to choose life over death through God's majesty displayed in science.

Also, for the first time in many years, the majority of Americans believe that abortion is wrong. The word is slowly getting out in spite of the abortion lobby and the complicity of the Lame Stream Media, we are making headway against the propaganda of the abortionists. No matter how hard they rant, slander, libel, and insult us, we have to keep up the task before us, and not be timid about the protection of all human life. God willing Roe v Wade can, and will be, overturned in this decade.

More encouraging news: With the increasing gains against pro-abortion politicos in even Dem strongholds so far (e.g. Virginia & New Jersey), and even to the point of a conservative possibly taking over Teddy Kennedy's seat, we will keep the momentum rolling. A number of other liberals have already called it quits and have announced that they are not running for reelection in 2010. Obama's poll numbers, even by MSM CBS statistics are at and unprecedented low of 46% - unheard of for a first year president.

However, we should stand with those Democrats who are pro-life like Bart Stupak and his gang of 40 who got life protections in the House bill. Unfortunately, Ben Nelson sold us out for his 30 pieces of a Medicaid bribe (Cornhusker Kickback), but it is doubtful he will be reelected in 2012 in part because no pro-life group will support him again.

All in all, it portends to be a good year for setting our nation back on the path to Faith, freedom, and prosperity. Keep up the good fight!

Wow Carl, you actually had to pull out the 'R' word. You get the special prize. Isn't your rule: the first one to lose an argument should pull out the race card?

Torture is never OK and that is why I am against it, like Bush, Obama, and most Americans. Your problem is that what you say is "torture" and its not, is actually worse than the systematic extermination of millions of defenseless unborn children? Yeah, I'm sure most Americans would agree with that one!

No wonder those in Darfur, Congo, and Rwanda hold their noses when the pro-abortion U.N. comes in and tries to play the moral majority in regards to genocide. What will you tell "God" when He asks you about all those defenseless babies you were complicit in killing? Actually, some things don't even need to be refuted, only stated...

No Mark, awfully quick to address the race card...seems a bit defensive to me. Something you don't want to be known about you, there Marky?

Secondly, I guess when I said you were in favor or torture, I went with the opinion of the majority of people, lawmakers, and military personnel and leaders the world over..."enhanced interrogation" is torture. Your defense of these programs underscores your disdain and disrespect of human rights. One could even say that it proves your racist tendencies since, by supporting rendition and TORTURE, you are supporting abuses commited against a predominantly non white populace.

In quoting scripture delineating between good and evil, you should take a long look in the mirror Marky. You have already violated at least one commandment (thou shalt not lie) all over the board.

I'm also still struggling to make a connection between TORTURE and abortion. One causes intense pain and visions of death for the purpose of humiliating and assaulting one's VICTIM to the point of telling you whatever the VICTIM thinks will make the TORTURE stop. The other is a removal of a non-sentient, unthinking, unfeeling, completely undeveloped cell cluster from a woman's body. I would suggest perhaps a neural scan of a fetus during an abortion could indicate some sort of pain or even awareness that the procedure is occuring but, since the aforementioned neural tissue is non existent, I guess that's just not possible eh...

God bless America

GI -- In the unrevised history books I believe that the fine Christian man William Wilberforce in England got the ball rolling on slavery. Beyond that Lincoln and the majority of Northerners who were Christians risked their blood and the fabric of our nation to abolish slavery. Do you really only listen to Maher, Olbermann, and Matthews?

Karl M. -- You're the only one here who brought race into this and we know that is a common tactic by those whose logic, reason, and arguments can't hold up to inspection. Let me see though, by your condoning the genocide of the unborn of every race one could postulate that you are a Multi-ethic Genocidal Racist. By your standards that should work, but I won't play your little race-baiting game because that would bring me down to your level. I would really prefer to think that your conscience has been seared beyond repair by the indoctrination you got somewhere in your secular humanist education (college?).

Show me where the majority of all Americans (not just liberals) believe enhanced interrogations are what you falsely call "torture"? The last time I looked, I saw polls going either way depending on who was being asked and how the question was put. Anyway I don't base my worldview and convictions on polling data. Once again, your messiah, his administration, the Justice Department, and Dems in Congress still support it just like under Bush. We use it on our own troops as part of training. I went through the E&E course and no one there ever considered it torture. You know nothing about the military and are just another ignorant peacenik, so get a grip on yourself...

To continue, Obama has shown by his enormous flip flop on Rendition and the Patriot Act, that once he got all the facts, he realized it was not torture. Otherwise we must believe it was just another of his lies to get elected. Hey, you want to disagree with the guys who Lied to you to get elected, then that's fine with me. If you want to change it, knock yourself out and do something constructive instead trying to defend genocide of the unborn.

Come on Karl, discomfort over simulated drowning and what you call "visions of death" cannot even compare with the ACTUAL DEATH that occurs to millions of babies during an abortion where the child is killed in the womb of it's mother and sucked out with a vacuum device and then disposed of in a dumpster or sent off to the embryonic stem cell lab for Josef Mengele-type experiments. I would strongly suggest that you fire up a search engine and look at some ultrasounds of first trimester babies. Is your mind really that numb to the value of human life -- ALL life?!

I've stated this in another post, but I'll try it one more time for your sake. Even if you as a "Christian" disregard what the Bible says about God forming humans in the womb, human life has to begin at conception because that is where the catalytic event starts. Before that time there is no life, nothing, and it is only when the egg and sperm, which come from totally independent sources, unite to give the spark of divine life.

At any point after that time, the beginning of life is not based on any scientific or medical consensus and is a grossly arbitrary presumption. You might as well just pull numbers out of a hat. Maybe because you also disregard God's word about humans being created in His image in the womb, and hold to the THEORY of atheistic Darwinian evolution, you must believe that some form of incredibly rapid evolution occurs in the mother's womb within three months? Karl, you really slay me....

GI -- our budding "roughly" atheist arises from the ashes!

Please, let me know how your fellow atheists were involved in slavery, and how many died to end slavery. I don't think you'll choose to answer that one without more insults.

I'm sure they were probably just poking around in some mud hole looking for their infamous and still-missing "missing link". But, as usual, you either willfully prooftext and take verses out of their context, or you really are just an ignorant and bitter atheist. In any case, the verses you quoted do not condone slavery. If looked at in their cultural context and the broader context even you will see that your deductive reasoning is invalid.

Since slavery was legal in the Roman Empire Paul is quite plainly telling slaves who became Christians to continue to submit to their masters for the sake of submitting to legal authority and for reasons of testimony to the Faith. If you can't at least see the testimony aspect in these verses then there is little hope. Also, in keeping with the totality of Scripture and not just your cheery picking (i.e. abusive prooftexting) of verses, we also see Paul patiently and lovingly moving slaveholders who converted to Christianity to free their slaves. Hopefully, you can find Philemon in a Bible somewhere.

Anyone who abused a normative hermeneutic in teaching the Bible to promote slavery since the first century is guilty as charged. However, your constant abuse of painting entire religions for the sins of some is no better, convoluted at best and your logic is reprehensible worst. You will judged as they will for willful sin and rejection of truth.

"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man". Luke 6:22

"Please, let me know how your fellow atheists were involved in slavery, and how many died to end slavery."

I am not atheist, so it wouldn't be correct to characterize them as "fellow atheists," but beyond your foolishness, I would guess a great deal of atheist or agnostic folks were involved. Agnosticism, empiricism, rationalism, and existentialism were all the rage in the north at the time, especially considering the heavy intellectual influence coming from Europe, and how influential these fields of inquiry were in compelling abolitionists to fight.

"Since slavery was legal in the Roman Empire Paul is quite plainly telling slaves who became Christians to continue to submit to their masters for the sake of submitting to legal authority and for reasons of testimony to the Faith."

This is allegedly God's word, and God is allegedly all knowing, and ever present. Thus, why would God make the text only culturally relevant to the Roman Empire? What else in the text is no longer relevant do you think?

"However, your constant abuse of painting entire religions for the sins of some is no better..."

I have painted in nothing but the tones of truth and the hues of verifiable history. I am sorry that the belief system that you either bought into without thinking about, or that was pounded into your head by the people you trusted most, is so directly entangled with some of the worst aspects human history. I really do feel bad for you.

"You will judged as they will for willful sin and rejection of truth."

Yes, very logical. Your are nothing but a mystique with a good story.

And I am sorry, but once again, I am not atheist, nor am I a statist. I revile despotism, and instead embolden the great balance America has struck since its inception between socialism and capitalism. And I would gladly fight against the leadership of men like those you listed.

I love your vim, Mark, but your highly emotional (whiny?) reactions are starting to even further deteriorate your already wafer thin logic. I'll ask you once again to desist in telling me what I think and what I believe and then attacking it. We all know this as a strawman tactic, and it is becoming clear that you cannot argue against me, so you must lie and manufacture arguments on my behalf to attack.

Moreover, your disgusting premise that because the Supreme Court upheld women's rights in Roe V Wade, that somehow gives us a green light to torture enemy combatants is exactly what I have come to expect from Cons in this blog. The more I learn about you, the more I realize how poor a representation of Christianity you are.

Mark, you bear a certain resemblance to David Duke during his run for office. You publicly decree to have left certain belief systems behind yet, when you speak, any man with a Cracker Jack de-coder ring can figure you out.

Marky Mark, you are a liar. Your lies started just to get people to notice you but, after awhile, you had (have) lied to so many people that you had to stand your ground lest the weight of one lie crush another.

At some point it became obvious to you that you could heal yourself thru evangelizing those who had yet to see the light...the problem, though, with you and your funky bunch is that the words you preach are old and tired and no longer truthful.

I thought it cute when you thanked God for the western abolition of slavery...c''mon Marky Mark...we both know how you feel.

God bless America