In Search of Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Posted Sunday, January 10, 2010, at 5:03 AM
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  • I have yet to see any proof were going to kill of the elderly.

    As for the abortions, I don't know if you read my post in your 30 pieces of silver blog or not, but i still stand by making abortions illegal wont do anything to end them. All it will do is push it underground, with more people dying and just a blip on the news rather then be in mainstream.

    In case you didn't read my thoughts on it, here is a copy and paste of my comment in from that blog.

    Sam, so you may see where I get some of my thinking process from you may want to read this article . So you know, its about using persuasion versus force to get the changes you want. Also, so you know, While I agree with a lot of the article and especially the theme, I don't agree with all the little things it says.

    Also, after previewing, this gets really long and for that I apologize. It also may ramble at times, and if that is true, I apologize. I lost my train of thought in the middle of typing this out and may have repeated myself in a couple places.

    First, I think there's way too many abortions. And I also don't expect you to agree with my thoughts on the matter, though I do you hope you think about it as a second way of getting to the goal.

    I don't think it will make much of a difference if its legal or illegal. I think these days people who really don't want the baby will go greater lengths to get rid of the unborn baby. I could see more deaths of women who tried to have an illegal abortion thereby also losing the baby. Because of this, personally, I think passing a law would be pointless.

    For me, I think we need to look into why women decide to have abortions in order to actually solve the issue.

    I can come up with a few ideas, do note though I have little to no research as to why. also the number one answer to them will be more support/education.

    I think on thing to think about is that people who are pregnant for the first time and weren't planning on it, are scared to death about being a parent. There's a lot of horror stories, and the people that already have kids joking about the negative aspects. They don't see the thing growing in them as a human yet. Many see this thing as ball and chain that will permanently enslave them and they feel hopeless.

    I think if there was a larger support circle for these people family, friends, church, society in general, they may realize that while they can't go to everything they want to or used to be able to, they can still go out occasionally and have a break from the kid.

    Others are going to feel hopeless because of the lack of resources available. Many feel they won't be able to finish high school, others feel they can get through high school but not college. For the long term they feel better about not having the baby and not being interrupted from continuing on their chosen path. I think too many times people get a set plan in life and no deviation is allowed. Times are changing and no one is surviving with that mindset. Again with a better support group, I think people will realize there is hope in raising the child and that they are not alone.

    I also, had a couple other reason on why I think people have abortions, I lost my train of thought though and forgot what they were. If the reasons why people have abortions aren't figured out,

    Sam, I think you know I'm in favor of legal abortions of rape, incest, life of mother. I wont ever consider forcing them too, though I think the option should be available. To the women that have decided to have a rape baby, I have a lot of respect for. There's also the women that wouldn't be strong enough to care for the child forced upon them. I won't ever have a bad thing to say if choose to terminate the pregnancy and will respect them the same.

    I also think many people feel ashamed of an unplanned baby especially young people. Family members will be mad depending on age. others will be elated. Though once the baby is here everyone seems to cheer up.

    I don't think society is completely there yet to helping people considering abortion. I think the church can be wonderful in these situations. Right now, I'm not impressed with organized church though. Don't get me wrong I think faith and religion are wonderful things no matter the religion. However, I think that organized religion has become extremely negative and condemning anything. I don't think that putting a cross on your lawn saying this is for the millions of babies aborted every year will help the situation.

    In my opinion, church should be there for talking about the love god and helping those. That is the way to bring the people back to God. Not condemning everything/everyone left and right. "May the one without sin be the one to cast the first stone" I think that's losing its meaning and stones are flying.

    I don't remember Jesus trying to change laws. Instead, he tried to change people and the way they think. He used Persuasion over force. You can force people to do whatever you want. Look that the purple house in Cambridge. The town said you have to paint. They did. I don't think many people where pleased with the outcome. If you persuade people to act how you think they should, they will follow you and be loyal. They wont follow you while they figure out how to rebel. Jesus also loved the sinners and showed the compassion and forgiveness. Today, I feel like the church does just the opposite.

    Again, I don't hate religion or faith. I think everyone should have some sort of religion. and I know in my mini rant, I focused solely on Christianity, but its what a affiliate myself with and that is what I have a problem with.

    Family is another huge support group. I have a baby who'll be 6 months on New Years. If it wasn't for mine and my fiance's family, It'd be impossible. We're both full time College students, she'll be taking 7 classes next semester, I'll have 4. She's gradating a year early I'll be a year late with how things worked out. But that was also the plan before baby was even in the picture. Plus I'm working two jobs at low wages, ranging a combined 25-35 hours a week. If it was for our families, things would be a lot different and unfortunately, Many people considering abortions don't have that.

    As for what to do with people who get illegal abortions, I don't really care what happens to them. I just asked cause I saw a clip where abortion protesters were asked and none of the ones shown had an answer. Some figured that the deed had been done and that it was between them and God and they shouldn't be punished by law. For me, it would be pointless to have a law and no consequences.

    -- Posted by npwinder on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 12:35 PM
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    Sam, wow. What a story. It is another of these stories that I wonder why I had never heard of it until today? The last time I saw men of God go to jail in America standing for innocents was the civil rights movement. It took public demonstrations, and fierce activism, and a willingness to risk it all, and some did, to fight bigotry. Hubby gets it Sam. He understands what you are saying and why. When abortion was made law by the Supreme Court, the abortion activists did not run into the streets and say, "hey there! We're gonna kill fifty million by 2010!" Yet that is exactly what has happened.

    NWinder says no one is out to kill seniors. Listen Winder, If you start rationing care, and cutting half a trillion dollars in Medicare funding, then increase Medicare participants, you will end up with seniors dying much earlier than they should. The liberals will not come out and say any of this, yet it will happen........if we let it.

    We have been busy over the holidays and I haven't been keeping up, but I will. I loved your Christmas Violin story. Candy

    -- Posted by CandyKilroy on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 2:11 PM
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    npwinder - I thank you for your time and thoughts. I agree with much of what you say, but I have to tell you, I still think you might be missing my point.

    I was around when Roe v. Wade was proclaimed law by a runaway Supreme Court. The supporters called many of us names for sounding the alarm. When we pointed out the death toll from abortion could be in the millions, we were called crazy.

    Just like the folks who say that Obama care is going to send millions of old folks to their deaths much sooner. Again we get scoffed at. When will you realize that libs/progressive policies do nothing but cause death and steal money?

    You ask many times about specific punishments for getting an abortion or a Doctor who gives one. I would let each State decide that. That is what a Republic is suppose to do.

    I am one that thinks that women who get abortions are victims themselves, and will suffer for many years for the easy choice to kill their own child. I would tend to be easier on the women, and hard on men who impregnate them.

    It is time for men to be more than uncontrolled sex machines, and think responsibly about sex and children, instead of hooking up, with a cavalier attitude about the consequences.

    The goal here is not to stop every single abortion. NO NO NO!!

    That would be nice, but I want respect for life brought back into this country! Then, maybe you can actually trust some government official to do the right thing with a senior who needs medical care.

    How many horror stories do you need?

    There are countless examples of people who really should not be getting Social Security Disability, who get it. And, countless examples of people who are really hurt and can not work, who don't get Social Security. You want to do the same with health care?

    I am all for working on the hearts and minds of each person we meet. The Carls' and hank's of the world always want to talk about the 16 year old crack ***** that is pregnant, and they have every right to bring that up. What I say, a point brought up by another blogger, is that in Washington State alone there are over thirty abortion mills.

    My God! There are so many pregnant sixteen year old crack ****** in Washington State that it takes thirty baby killing centers to handle the work?

    Now really! We can take steps to stop birth control by abortion, and still protect victims. Would you agree with me on that?

    The government loves to throw tax money at folks to influence their behaviors, why not offer a woman, that would take a rape baby, and adopt that child, a twenty year no Federal Tax benefit? How about that? There are steps we can take to seriously respect life.

    Why is that important? Because my friend, the government is setting themselves up as god.

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 4:51 PM
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    Candy - yes indeed! Pastors went to jail for civil rights. There was direct action taken, civil disobedience, and change happened.

    Christians did not go out and murder bigots! But they worked to stop bigotry!

    The same could be said today regarding abortion. We don't go out and shoot abortionists! However you make a stand to say that the senseless murder of the unborn has to stop!

    I don't know why this is so hard for libs/progressives to understand...unless, unless they don't want to understand, and their support for abortion is more sinister in nature.

    Blessings to you and hubby!

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 4:56 PM
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    Carl - I want to know why God should Bless America?

    Should God Bless America regardless of what America does?

    At what point should God STOP blessing America?

    How does God Bless America?

    If you were God, would you Bless America?

    Why or why not?

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 4:59 PM
  • The insurance companies ration healthcare today. It just called a co-pay.

    one thing I read on either or, other expenses are larger its more like 219 billion cut. Also, is it benefits being cut? or other expenses. If it's benefits, you have an argument, if its other expenses, you may not. depends on what other expenses they are trying to cut.

    -- Posted by npwinder on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 5:21 PM
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    Sam, many thanks for a great exposition and exhortation on what it means to stand firmly for biblical principles, even in the face of death. Although I have marched against abortion, I have yet to feel led to take it to the levels Bonhofer did against the Nazism of his day. Maybe I am wrong, but personally I don't think we are quite there yet, however under the current administration we may get there before 2012. If Obama and the liberal progressives think that all true Christians are just going to stand by idly while they force us to pay for the killing of the preborn, they have another thing coming. Their tolerance of feticide stops at my convictions on murder. You and I may meet in jail someday...

    Still, it never ceases to amaze me how even the most heinous of crimes, like genocide and feticide, can be swept under the rug by Liberals with a quick brush of moral relativism. The modern-day Pharisees then wash their hands in a manner that even Pontius Pilate would be proud of and say, "we don't LOVE abortions (feticide), but they are going to do it anyway, and so we should just condone the crime in the name of "choice". What a feat of intellectual, moral-relativist gymnastics that is!

    By that logic why should any murderer be held accountable? To use the logic of the secular fundamentalist why should there be laws against the use of any narcotics, gay marriage, polygamy, prostitution, pornography, and pedophilia, to name but a few? How can you set any boundaries whatsoever when they are relative to your arbitrary and ever changing world view? This is what happens when someone has no righteous, just, sovereign, creator God to give them any moral guidance. This is the cult of Humanism at its worst.

    Then there are what I will call the pseudo-Christians, who claim some sort of belief in God, and make their monthly or Easter/Christmas pilgrimage to darken the doors of their local church. Many of these are more accurately described as Agnostics, Gnostics, and neo-Deists to where church is just another social club (or if God really does exist, an excuse to get a Get Out of Hell Free Card).

    Such enlightenment is be revered and held in high regard we are told! We are the enlightened pseudo-religionists and can't you see our compassion for all (but the Preborn), and our tolerance of everything (that is non biblical)? Our "enlightened theology" is better than that fundamentalist Bible stuff. Don't you know that the Bible, like our Constitution, is an ever changing, living and breathing document? Its interpretation is something different and takes on new meaning for each generation. [believe me, that bilge was hard to type]

    Heck, in our "enlightened" & "tolerant" nation today these same Liberals have had their way so that animals and trees have more rights than preborn children. Should we be surprised that the U.S. and Europe have absolutely ZERO moral high ground with which to condemn the genocides in Sudan, Congo, and elsewhere when the abortionists legalize the killing of our own preborn?! No wonder the rest of the world holds us in contempt as hypocrites. Let me put it as simply as I can; You are either FOR abortion or you are AGAINST it, there is no gray or middle ground. Ben Nelson said he was against abortion, but when his moral relativism was put to the test we found out the truth - - he is just another liberal/progressive who is PRO-Abortion.

    The "Pro-Choicer" says they are against killing in warfare, the death penalty for convicted murders, etc, and yet in their hypocrisy they have no qualms about killing babies. When up against this type of mindset, I hold no quarter and have given up trying to debate with anyone who advocates Abortion. If said person condones (either actively or passively) the murder of the most vulnerable and least protected people in God's creation, then there is very little common ground of morality to start a meaningful discussion from.

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 5:31 PM
  • Yes winder, I have a co-pay, and it does not cut down on the quantity of my health care at all.

    You are so on the mark Sam, what has America done to deserve God's blessing. Not very much. Somewhere, Americans were led to believe that being happy with what we have is some how not good enough. We want bigger houses, fancier cars, prettier women, just more, more, more. We work longer hours, devoting our lives to our jobs, and less to Jesus. We spend all our resources to "get ahead" in our lives. And who pays for that, our children. Our children will bear the cost of our desired legacy. All those false idols we pursued, whether it is sex, intoxicants, or mere possessions, will chase our children down as well.

    How many churches operate a day care in this area? I here a lot of church goers complain about the single mothers on welfare, yet do absolutely nothing to help. Some churches would rather not let "those people" in. I see a lot of people, who earn a lot of money, yet will spend all of it on themselves and not give any away to charities, except for that dollar in the Salvation Army pot.

    Faith without deeds is meaningless. So I challenge you Christian, where are you at today? You want to be on this team, you will be called on to play, are you ready?

    So Carl, why should God bless America?

    By the way Guillermo, Thou shalt not murder. There are other ways to do Jesus' work.

    So here I am on my soapbox, some body please knock me off.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 6:54 PM
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    Guillermo - I stated in my comments to Candy I think, that Christians who stood against racial hatred and bigotry, did not go out and murder bigots to bring about change.

    We, who believe in the sanctity of life, should not go out and murder abortionists. There are other ways of bringing about changes.

    Funny funny Guillermo, who says my outrage at abortion is phony. What I am to make of your outrage at GITMO? So concerned are you about Islamic terrorists, but you show nothing for the truly innocent.

    You hypocrite Guillermo. You are just a cliche, waiting to happen. An intellectual dunce! You're little retort was predictable, and already answered before your robotic response.

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 7:11 PM
  • CPB, here's an article I read on rationing and how it's already done.

    Also, if more churches did more to help out those single mothers, do you think it would show people there is support and an abortion isn't needed.

    -- Posted by npwinder on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 7:19 PM
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    CPB and Mark - Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

    Like many Christians I wonder about just how far I can go in obeying my government and not put my soul into jeopardy.

    At some point however, we will have to make a stand, don't you think?

    They kicked God right out of schools, and started teaching fairy tales!! We made no stand. All those dead kids, and we have yet to make a stand?

    There are far too many phony Christians, and they infect the body of Christ.

    For example, folks that hate God, have no trouble voting for Obama, because they know he doesn't mean it when he claims to be a Christian.

    The proof is clearly on display when you look at Palin and Obama. Both claim to be Christians.

    Obama had the chance three times in Illinois to see to it that babies, who survive the attempted murder during an abortion, be given aid and help to live. Three times Obama said "NO!" He voted to let those babies die in the abortionists' sink!

    Palin, on the other hand, found she was to have a special needs child. In today's me generation, 4 out of 5 of these children are executed in the womb. Palin chose life! And the libs/progressives freaking hate her for it!

    You see the difference?

    You can clearly see the hypocrisy in every word that flows from Guillermo. He seems to be concerned about every thug, dictator, and creep, and terrorist, but the unborn?

    You want folks like Guillermo making life and death decisions regarding your health care?

    That is what you're going to get. Indoctrinated robots, with no regard for life, a hatred of America and Americans, with a leftist political agenda, coming out of college and deciding if you are worth the operation you need. No thanks! I'll pass.

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 7:32 PM
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    I agree with Chunky & Sam and yes, ever so predictably, Guillermo just confirmed everything I said in my post. As is typical, he didn't respond with any substance, just a rant. That is why I have found over and over again that it is almost impossible to have any rational debate about abortion/feticide with these rabid progressives. If you have no moral compass based on the established laws of the Creator, it just swings wildly from pole to pole.

    The only True and Living God said it best:

    "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper".

    Romans 1

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 7:39 PM
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    Npwinder - I want to come against the notion that every woman who has an abortion is the stereotypical troubled woman, all alone, with no choices, abused, blah blah blah.

    No sir! Most abortions are convenience abortions. Girls that don't want to interfere with college, or explain to their parents or whatever.

    The libs/progressives also have the anti-population folks in their camps. They view abortion as a method of keeping the numbers of evil humans from populating the globe down.

    You libs/progressives should realize that we are on to your craziness.

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 7:44 PM
  • npwinder,

    I am reasonably pleased with my health insurance, other than the cost of the premium, I have no complaints.

    I didn't think I made the link between useful churches and the reduction of abortions. I believe abortions came about because of a total breakdown of society, from a Biblical standpoint. Just take the 10 Commandments, and put "equals abortion" behind each one, it becomes undeniable. If we give God any reason to absolutely destroy us, it will be because of abortion.

    I believe it is absolutely necessary for churches to become useful, providing support for all who could "fall between the cracks". For some reason, many churches have chosen to not become useful, and they deserve to die, and many do. Very few churches in this area have any outreach at all in their communities. Most churches won't even discuss sex, although the Bible talks about it in great length, it must be important. How many churches talk about how to deal with a possible teen pregnancy? Quite a few area churches hold quilt raffles, bake sales, etc. Fine and dandy, but BIG DEAL. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, and that all we can really do, change society. Get out there and make the changes as Jesus instructed us to do, even if it's one person at a time.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 7:50 PM
  • God is also responsible for millions and billions of the living. Religious wars, starvation, disease poverty abuse, and etc, those are man made. He told us that would happen.

    Warfare is a horrible failure of man kind, innocent live are lost, sadly, it is history and we can only learn from it. And sadly, I don't think we have. We cannot bring their lives back.

    -- Posted by Hugh Jassle on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 8:31 PM
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    Guillermo -- your rant against the existence of God only shows your anger and rebellion against all forms of authority. You now equate how man's sinful rebellion against God has caused the death of millions to your support of the feticide of unborn, defenseless children? This rails against logic.

    On abortion, since you started off with a false and un-provable and premise what more can we debate? There are both science and biblical precedence that disagree with your irrational hypothesis. At the most fundamental level you don't believe in a God that creates life, and especially from conception. The "fetus" is just a bunch of nerves, etc.... At what "magical" point does all the bunch of tissue become a "person"? To you life is just a legal matter.

    Since I also believe that God created you as a free moral agent, I admit that you are free to deny His existence at your own peril. Since you reject my previous posts, and we disagree at the most basic level on morality, you will never "prove" anything to me by ranting. I also think you are being disingenuous to say that you would never allow abortions after the first trimester...


    Finally, there have been many articles published on how the progressives have adopted Eugenics as their strategy behind "Pro-Choice". It is not surprising to lean that Planned Parenthood's founder came out of this movement.

    "The principal manifestations of eugenics are racism and abortion; eugenics is the basis for "scientific racism" and laid the foundation for legalizing abortion. It is the driving force behind euthanasia; in vitro fertilization and embryo and fetal research. It is the driving force in global population policy, which is a key element in American foreign policy. It is the force driving much of the environmentalist movement; welfare policy; welfare reform and health care. It is found in anthropology; sociology; psychology -- (many of) the social sciences. -- Free Republic"

    One article is here:

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 8:40 PM
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    Guillermo, no matter how you try and cover it, no matter how you spin it, no matter how you dismiss it, baby killing is murder.

    You progressives not only stand by and do nothing, you support the murder of the unborn. You must have some desire to try and hurt God, and silly libs, you only end up with blood on your conscience. It is pathetic to watch.

    You're wrong, my diluted liberal pal, baby killing is not required in any society, and your constant rants that abortion must be permitted shows the total depravity of your soul brought on by years of educational abuse and political indoctrination.

    Perhaps you should seek an exorcism.

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Sun, Jan 10, 2010, at 11:53 PM
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    Mark - planned parenthood was formed under Margaret Sanger as a way to rid the world of undesirables, especially blacks. Sanger was a racist, and it should come as no surprise that black women are suffering under abortion.

    Guillermo's type thinks that the government should control almost every single aspect of ours lives, from toliet water to light bulbs, to what we can drive, and what money we earn that we can keep. Yet, when it comes to protecting life, suddenly the pagans on the left think the government should go away. They want all of us to turn our backs while they slaughter innocents and call it progress.

    Guillermo demonstrates the most detestable in our society. People with no conscience, acting like they have the ability to be moral. Nothing is more dangerous than a society run on Guillermo's morals. The killing would never stop.

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Mon, Jan 11, 2010, at 12:03 AM
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    Barring the biblical proofs that God "forms us in the womb", even grade-schoolers I have talked with can grasp the simple biological concept and logic that life begins at conception. I will try to put it in as simple of terms as possible for you. Before the egg and sperm unite, which come from totally independent sources, there is no life. At that "miracle" moment when the two unite and become one, and only at that precise moment, a cataclysmic event transpires that causes a chain reaction. Without this event, no life can begin. Even for bitter atheists this should absolutely undeniable science! So, if you don't believe that life begins at conception, then any point beyond that is purely arbitrary, illogical, and not based on any medical science.

    Couple this denial of even the most basic medical science with secular fundamentalism's moral relativism and you have no way to have an intelligent and rational discussion of abortion. When someone rabidly believes that the feticide/abortion of preborn, defenseless children is morally defensible, and that trees and animals deserve more protection under the law, then you are up against hardcore reprobates who have been brainwashed beyond repair.

    Most abortionists I have talked with did not come to their beliefs from an actual study of religion or science, but instead by blindly believing what some liberal/progressive professor told them in college. Sadly, many of our institutions of "higher" learning are no longer teaching their students to be critical and independent thinkers, only to parrot the teaching of their atheistically ideological Profs.

    Since all people share common genetics descending from God's creating them in His image it is not hard to see how the founders of Planned Parenthood's abortion clinics have used eugenics for scientific racism, genocide, and population control. A blind adherence to the theory of Atheistic Darwinian evolution is the only reason to deny this. The resulting cult of humanistic man-caused global warming and the worship of creatures over the Creator have brought you to the belief that man is the only "creature" that needs to be destroyed to save the earth. Beyond that, the numerous articles on the history of eugenics speak for themselves.

    I made an exception in this thread since I haven't tried to engage an abortionist in quite some time, but once again, I should have known better. Oh well, true Christians should continue to pray that God would work in their lives to soften their hatred, bitterness, and intellectual blindness to His presence. May the only true and living God of the Bible continue to bless America as she seeks repentance.

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Mon, Jan 11, 2010, at 12:27 PM
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    Hey Mark! My wife is a big fan of yours. I appreciate you very much. God Bless.

    -- Posted by sameldridge on Mon, Jan 11, 2010, at 2:33 PM
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    Sam, thanks for your kind words. Please give my best to your wife too. We need to stick together and continue to try and educate the humanist-progressive intelligentsia about what is Truth. As we've seen here, it is a hard row to hoe most times, but the Bible says true Christians shouldn't lose heart and are to be "salt and light" in this darkened world.

    Don't lose heart and keep up your great work!

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Mon, Jan 11, 2010, at 4:19 PM
  • Sam and Company (Candy, Chunky,Mark, Winder);

    Couple of us took a friend for a ride today.

    Widow, 63, partially disabled and seriously hurting from a fall -- attempting to "tough it out" because she cannot afford insurance of any kind, and no money to pay a doctor.

    So we took her to a state-owned teaching hospital which treats everyone.

    I left the two of them, went further into the city on business, returned at 1 p.m. and let the other friend go to take care of necessary business.

    Arriving at 7:30 a.m., she finally saw a doctor at 3:45, picked up two pain and inflammation prescriptions and we drove her home.

    That's rationing.

    A university educated woman, daughter of a WWII combat hero, widow of a man who shared her well-known trait of charitable giving.

    She is a beneficiary of that marvelous health system which doesn't need fixing. Sat in pain in a hospital waiting room for more than eight hours before her 10 minutes with an intern and nurse.

    Sorry, Samuel et al, I've battled insurance companies at least 50 times to get "Rationing restrictions" out of group medical contracts.

    The reality -- You have to first negotiate to get the needed coverage and benefits for all employees. Then you start fighting to keep what your people NEED and truly must have, while getting all the exceptions and restrictions the insurors want removed.

    In the process, just keep waving the check in front of them. A couple of times to get restrictions removed, I've had to agree to pay the first six months of premiums in advance -- the employer's share -- and the employees' share.

    Which meant, the company advanced the employees' share and they covered it proportionately with payroll deductions for the next three to six months.

    That's rationing.


    Only with the insurors, THE DEATH PANEL does not include any qualified medical people who are actively involved in treating the insured patient.

    The INSUROR DEATH PANEL consists of huge rooms, with hundreds of cubicles, each containing one clerk with a high school diploma, who has a duty to deny coverage under any pretext or excuse, regardless of the policyholder's contract guaranteeing medical treatment for the specific condition.

    Deny 50% of all claims, a fourth will give up without fighting to have the claim paid.

    The company adds to that $12.5-BILLION Health Insurance industry net profit for 2008, up from $2.5-BILLION in 1998.

    This is the same breed of thieving polecats as the people who bankrupted every major bank and then grabbed $50-Million personal bonuses for themselves from the "bail out money" DubYah arranged.

    They are the same breed of greedy crooks as those who bankrupted Merrill/Lynch and then awarded themselves more than $1-BILLION in bonuses, just before BofA bought M/L with more of yours and my money.

    The operative term with these people is and has long been -- GREED.

    EVERY HONEST AMERICAN believes in legitimate profit.

    There is a huge difference in legitimate business profit and unfettered corporate management greed.

    The people awarding themselves huge bonuses and their peers who approved those bonuses, stole several TRILLION DOLLARS from their company's stockholders.

    Some of those stockholders are people you know.

    Some of you may have been among them.

    I guarantee you that hard-working, honest, Christian High Plains folks lost most of their savings to that greed.

    And, Sam & Co., continue excusing them and justifying their crimes.

    -- Posted by HerndonHank on Mon, Jan 11, 2010, at 4:53 PM
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    Ben Nelson, Statists, and their Comrades,

    Since no one has refuted the anger, bitterness, and hatred of posts by the likes of Guillermo and Hank on this and other threads, I shall post here one last time. One can only waste a limited amount of common sense against such reckless and willful ignorance and hatred.

    Also, please forgive me if I have serious doubts as to the complete veracity of some of the stories being put forth by Hank having encountered many trolls out in the blogosphere. Some are no doubt based in truth as our system, and all systems, are not perfect. But even Obama's health-scare stories, once fact checked, usually contain outright lies. Others just parrot stories, usually heard on networks like MSNBC. However, even giving them the benefit of the doubt, I am not sure why these "people" don't qualify for either Medicare or Medicaid assistance. I know a large percentage of the uninsured do. I also know that under EMTALA laws no one can be denied treatment if they go to the emergency room for treatment (even from a minor fall). So, once again, pardon my skepticism.

    Although I am not a fan of corrupt, abuse/fraud ridden government programs like Medicare/Medicaid, I do know, as someone who works in health care, that many who qualify do not apply for whatever reason. One reason may be that information and programs disseminated by the government are notoriously bad and people run from them like the plague (ever filled out VA, or IRS forms?). The faith-based hospital I work for and many of its physicians do not refuse treatment and provide literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in free treatment every year. Well, it is free to the extent that hospitals have to eventually pass those costs on to those of us who pay for our health insurance. Darn those evil doctors and non-profit hospitals who just try and stay afloat!?

    That said, I am not surprised at the long wait in a government-run facility as in Hank's story since that is the norm. Another reason not to let the government get involved. That is not to demean all the workers there, but to state a simple fact -- multiple levels of bureaucratic red tape, and not being required to be profitable or compete with other facilities does not breed efficiency. Unionization is another problem. Also, most politicians consider the tax revenues for their entitlements to be inexhaustible in order to buy votes.

    This type of "care" is what is to be expected in the single-payer, government-run health systems we know of in Canada, Britain, and the rest of Europe. Is it because our health care is so terrible here that so many come from abroad to get treatment? No, it is usually because we have the best doctors, medical equipment, latest drugs, and shortest wait times for all forms of treatment. The U.S. is ranked number 1 in the world for getting the fastest access to treatment, which can be critical in determining the outcome.

    So, for you Statists/Entitleists, if you think insurance companies ration care now, then you have another thing coming if you imagine the government will do better! The last report I read on the profits for insurance companies was around 2 to 3%. Now, I am not a big fan of most any big company, but when you get a monstrosity like the Federal government, which gets it funding from your taxes, the problem is exacerbated exponentially.

    After living under a socialized health system in Europe for 4 years here is my PERSONAL "horror" story for your records. When my father-in-law was diagnosed in France with leukemia at the age of 75, the doctors over there told my wife's family that he was too old to be treated and would just have to be given increased amounts of morphine until he died, and die he did, with as much dignity as he could muster.

    I have nothing personal against Europeans, in fact I married one, but even after living in their collectivist society for those years I was upset and deeply disturbed by this so-called "compassionate treatment". However, try to imagine my further shock and outrage when upon returning to America the very next year I see Obama on T.V., saying very candidly that in many cases Grandma may be too old to be treated and would just have to take a pain pill! Yes, the video is out there. Once again, this is what happens when people have no morality based on a biblical concept of God.

    This is the truly RATIONED health care you Statists desire for everyone (except yourselves), a.k.a equally shared misery. For reasons that I have yet to fathom, politicians like Ben Nelson, government workers, and big labor unions are, I am told, to be exempt. If this care is so great, why shouldn't everyone be forced to go on it? [Sen. Harkin of neighboring Iowa told an audience of progressives/liberals that although the bill currently under consideration in the Senate doesn't contain a "public option", it is the "starter home" for a single-payer, government-run system to come. i.e. socialized as in socialism]

    There may not be a doorway with the plaque of "Death Panel" over it in D.C. yet, but I can assure you there will be one called by some other "compassionately" cryptic name. It will make the insurance companies look like Mother Teresa. I don't even ask you to believe me, just check out one of the many articles from respected British newspapers like "Sentenced to death on the NHS" to see what many say about their own system. This is nothing less than government-sanctioned euthanasia as in my father-in-law's case. So the Statist/eugenists want the preborn and elderly citizens to just die and get out of the way. That is the kind of "compassionate murder" that I want nothing to do with.

    Finally, as for the oft repeated false statements that the non-Statists want to do nothing, well that is either just ignorance or an outright lie. Many Republicans have offered up plans that extend coverage, eliminate loss of coverage due to preexisting conditions, tort reform, opening up insurance coverage across state lines to help competition, etc. But, the majority wants nothing to do with it as was evidenced by this summer's attempt at a bi-partisan approach. Facts be known, the Democratic majority, in spite of all those wonderful sounding campaign promises, has bought off big insurance (e.g. Ben Nelson with Mutual of Omaha), big pharma, AARP, AMA, ambulance-chasing trial lawyers, and labor unions. This is nothing but an entitlement power grab by Democrats like Ben Nelson.

    Some, in their so-called crusade against "corporate greed" and cradle-to-grave entitlements, would willingly trade their liberty and freedom (and mine) for the Government's greed for power, control, and corruption.

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Tue, Jan 12, 2010, at 10:00 AM
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    Che Guillermo,

    I did initially answer your posts, but since you didn't answer even half of my rebuttals, and then mainly with insults towards me and hate for my faith, I chose to ignore the remainder of them. This is what I meant by saying that rational debate with those who morally justify the killing of defenseless preborn children is very limited. With almost no common ground on concepts of morality the debate quickly devolves into futility.

    The articles I posted and their counterparts on the Web speak for themselves. If you are using presumptions on levels of education as your sole criteria for winning a debate, then I have no reason to doubt that those authors are more educated than you. No matter what I write, or who I quote, you will never concede anything and only reply with veiled insults. In any case, my point in this is that when common sense and a moral conscience are married with intelligence they make a person wise. To me wisdom is to be valued much higher than a naked IQ score, framed parchments on the wall, and a sharp/bitter tongue.

    So, that being said, I don't need to waste my time trading insults or trying to prove who is more "intelligent". Just because you say you are more of something only makes it so in Your mind. Apparently you have been taught that trying to establish one's haughty elitism is very important to your status or worth in society. Therefore, you use it to try and shut down debate, use insults to try and bait others into answering, and consequently whoever makes the most bluster wins. I will leave you to your methods. For whatever it's worth, I did go on to engage Hank's more seasoned post in the other thread to which you couldn't answer.

    Finally, although you apparently think you control this blog and dismissed me to go away, I shall inform you that I do not recognize your authority to do so and I shall remain as long as I please and respond or not respond as I choose. You Progressive Statists do not control my 1st Amendment right to free speech...yet. So now that we hopefully understand each other a little better you can bully away again!

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Tue, Jan 12, 2010, at 5:23 PM
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    I am new to this blog and was initially drawn here only about a week ago because of an article Ben Nelson wrote trying to explain why he betrayed the preborn for a Medicaid bribe. That topic lead me to Sam's threads. However, I still think from what I have read so far in your posts is that your being "roughly agnostic" actually translates more towards atheism. But, if being "roughly" something makes you less offensive and antagonistic towards the rest of us then that will do.

    Even for someone who who professes to be "roughly agnostic", I know something "Spiritual" like "Faith" in the God of the Bible is a foreign concept to you. You do have a point that God is unprovable to those who can only "believe" in what they can feel with one of their senses. Of course, I can always counter you that my faith in God as being something spiritual, and being manifest in the wonder and complexity of science and nature is more rational than believing Everything came from Nothing, and that by random chance.

    That coupled with essential disagreements on morality is another reason why we will never get along on this blog. But getting along isn't the point I am here. I am here to counter humanism in all its forms including euthanasia and the genocide of the most defenseless and unprotected people on the planet, the preborn. Life starting beyond conception and "roughly" after the first trimester is laughably arbitrary and not even based on any consensus or fact of science.

    You are also right about your presence here being one based on "argument", meaning contentious speech, as opposed to debate or even discussion. As I mentioned previously, I know why you are argumentative in style. As the Leftist hero Saul Alinsky has proven it can be effective in silencing opponents and shutting down true debate, but it doesn't convince anyone of your point being valid. That is your right, but I also have the right to ignore it. Hey, drive on...

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Wed, Jan 13, 2010, at 11:50 AM
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    Not everyone follows your ego around on every thread!

    -- Posted by NebraskaMark on Wed, Jan 13, 2010, at 6:09 PM
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