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Do Not Give Up The Fight For LifePosted Monday, June 1, 2009, at 11:43 PM
My immediate reaction upon hearing about Tiller's death was anger. Anger at the man who shot the serial abortionist, George Tiller. This killer just saw to it that many more millions of innocent babies will die in the USA. The killer of George Tiller just set back the effort to save these precious gifts from God by ten years. Millions of lives are at stake because this killer murdered this so-called women's health care provider. Kathleen Sibelius, the former Kansas governor, now in the Obama Cabinet, in her zeal to collect campaign cash from the notorious Dr. Tiller, shielded Tiller when legal attempts were made to try and stop his hideous practice. Our Government was set in motion to honor life, to protect life, to hold life sacred. Our leaders should have been doing their jobs to protect life, as our founding documents demand. Instead the religious left has shown little regard for human life, choosing to portray humans as a curse to the good earth. The religious left, the Emotionals, have worked to desensitize the public to the sheer debauchery that is America's abortion industry. Why are you on the left surprised when someone goes nuts and shows as little concern for life as you do? Let's see. The abortion doctors have slaughtered over fifty million children, and eight abortionists have been killed by abortion foes. To those of you who respect and hold dear the sanctity of life, do not let the religious left intimidate you from standing for the unborn. Of course they will use this killing of Dr. Tiller as a reason to come after and silence us. Eric Holder, President Obama's reprobate of an Attorney General, sent Federal Marshals to protect the takers of innocent unborn lives. So typical in a religous leftist world. Protect the people who kill children, when our government should be protecting children from these abortionists. Then you would not need to protect doctors who kill babies, because there wouldn't be any. So, as you on the left ratchet up the rhetoric to keep baby killing a number one priority in your leftist America, ask yourself some questions? Why does your religion demand so much blood? Why do you value the life of every grub worm, amoeba, rat and fly on the planet more so than human life? You fantastic people that fight for the right of the unborn not to be murdered, do not pull back your efforts. We who value life, we who value the precious gifts from God, are not the problem. The problem is the leftists, continuing to push for abortion, the blood sacrament in their weird religion. How do we know that abortionists have not killed off children who would have grown to find a cure for cancer, or rid the world of AIDS? In the incredible death toll of abortion, we may have already killed the child who could have helped us with our energy problems, or children who could have been great writers or thinkers. In the lefts zeal to play God, they have killed off fifty million attempts by God to help us. Am I to mourn a man who reportedly has stopped the heart of over SIXTY THOUSAND innocent lives? Am I to mourn for Dr. Tiller? I cannot. I do not rejoice either. This killing just gave the left more ammo with which to continue this abortion holocaust. Did I want Dr. Tiller shot? Hell no! I wanted him in jail! I wanted him to stop killing kids. But be prepared my dear friends, the Gestapobama will use this incident to try and silence the voices of reason. We have right on our side. We must work all the harder to end this scourge of abortion that is killing the soul of America, if the soul of America is not dead already. The religious leftists will cry that this killing of Tiller was an act of terrorism. Typical diluted leftists. The Obama people go out of their way to not call actual terrorists..."terrorists". Yet, those nutty Emotionals will try and brand those of us who defend life, and defend what is right, as terrorists. If we, who defend innocent life, had been doing a better job of stopping this abortion horror, then Tiller would have been out of business years ago. It is not us on the right who are extreme, it is the religious left that is extreme. Do let these leftists silence you! Don't let them blame you for the acts of a killer. We are the people standing for life. Comments Showing most recent comments first [Show in chronological order instead] |
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The constitution does not solely apply to American citizens, but to anyone within our borders and legal jurisdiction. (And military bases ARE American soil, and certainly within our jurisdiction).
And no, I'm not suggesting we GIVE them the rights. I'm suggesting they HAVE the rights, and we are denying them those rights. The constitution does not GIVE people rights, it protects the rights that people are born with. Inalienable rights of every human being. (I know that's semantics, but I think it's important)
My position is that we need to use our own justice system and laws on everyone in our jurisdiction. Not some special system cooked up that is entirely the purview of the executive branch.
You may be willing to trust the executive branch, and believe that anyone they SAY is a terrorist IS a terrorist. But I'll put my faith in the legal system to sort out who is guilty and who is innocent. That's what it's there for. The executive branch should NOT have the power to determine who is innocent or guilty. That flies in the face of the separation of powers defined in the constitution.
I wasn't will to trust the Bush administration with that power, and I'm not willing to trust the Obama administration with that power either.
So, you say we give American citizens rights to anyone in the world? Even terrorists caught on foreign soil? How nice of you.
Sam,
"You are wrong in your statistics. Planned Parenthood corrupts the statistics to justify the many abortion they perform."
Did I reference any statistics from planned parenthood? Or did I reference stats from the WHO and abortionno.org (an ANTI-Abortion website).
"For the sake of argument, let us say that your flawed stats are right. 7% are due to the 3 reasons you on the left harp on. Then we are killing 93% for no reason, other than stupidity or leftist religious ideology. You're okay with that?"
I said IN MY POST:
"I'm not trying to support MY position with these statistics (92% is still quite a high percentage)"
So how are you construing this IN ANY WAY as me attempting to support my argument, when I explicitly stated that it did not? I was simply making the point because I'm disgusted when people use 'statistics' that they simply make up. I was giving YOU the actual statistics, because you were apparently too lazy to look them up yourself, despite the fact that it takes about 10 seconds. I was not trying to support my argument, simply pointing out that it's lazy to make up statistics when they actual figures are trivial to find.
"99% of abortions performed for reasons other than rape, incest and threat to mothers life is actually low. In reality it is more like 99.8%."
More statistics without any referenced sources. I will be glad to admit the statistics I cited are flawed if you can cite a more respectable source that supports the numbers you have given. So please, share with us where you are getting your information.
That's how conversing is supposed to work. I provide facts, and if you can invalidate them using superior sources/evidence, I will amend my knowledge of the subject with the correct facts that are provided. Simply stating statistics without any supporting evidence/sources does not contribute to this form of discourse.
(and for the record, I'm not concerned at all about the terrorists at gitmo. I'm concerned about what our treatment of them means for our legal system. When the government has the power to declare ANYONE an unlawful combatant and detain them indefinitely without trial, I worry.)
(and can there actually be terrorists at Gitmo, legally speaking? Our justice system works on the principal of "innocent until proven guilty." How can these men be proven guilty without a trial?)
Wow Sam I'm impressed. When you lay off the wild ranting and creepiness, you can actually make a couple of valid points. I'd suggest you stick to this style more in the future.
Rural citizen - It does take two to tango, as you say. A big reason abortion continues to be a problem is men, not being men.
Men, (or should I say males pretending to be men) leave the woman alone to face the challenges of the pregnancy and subsequent abortion or child by themselves.
I do find it interesting that some of you say "keep the government out of this decision." Yet, in just about every other single human endeavour, you want government involved, and not just involved, but government to control as well.
Guillermno - yet another outbreak of the political herpes himself, good ole' Guill. Please, continue to comment. You do so much to demonstrate the nuttiness of the religious left. I appreciate it. The cry for more sex education had me laughing, that was a good one. You actually wrote that like you were serious, or would be taken seriously.
Mrs, Smith - Thanks!
Jhat - please, don't engage in Guillermo type tactics. You pro-abortion folks, lied to the American people before Roe v. Wade about the numbers of illegal abortions. NARAL's own former leader has admitted such frequently.
You are wrong in your statistics. Planned Parenthood corrupts the statistics to justify the many abortion they perform. Also, clinics ran by folks like the late Dr. Tiller, often did late term abortions, and they would lie about the reason for the abortion to justify their brutality.
99% of abortions performed for reasons other than rape, incest and threat to mothers life is actually low. In reality it is more like 99.8%.
For the sake of argument, let us say that your flawed stats are right. 7% are due to the 3 reasons you on the left harp on. Then we are killing 93% for no reason, other than stupidity or leftist religious ideology. You're okay with that?
You seem more concerned for the terrorists at GITMO.
AND Fred2 - Bro, if you subscribe to Darwinism, then we all are brothers, we all came from the same slime. If you are a Christian, then we all are brothers, we all came from Adam and Eve. It is just the way it is Bro.
You say you are SO tired of a man telling a women what she can do with her body. That is just a dumb statement. Seriously bro! You can do better than that. Did you get that statement from the same Rosie O'Donnell handbook for liberal stupidity that Guillermo uses?
We tell women all the time what to do with their body. If a women who is pregnant, takes illegal drugs, she can be charged with child abuse. She can have that baby inside her killed, but not doped up!
In every state, except Nevada, we tell women they cannot sell their body, and in every state we tell women they cannot put illegal drugs in their body.
(wait a minute, a woman can sell her body for money after all, in every state. The man who pays for sex, can film the woman and himself having the sex he paid for, then put it on the Internet as liberal art)
The point is, the baby has a body too. To say that that woman has the constitutional right to have that body inside her torn apart, and brutality killed, is a sad testament to American leftism.
I am SO tired of a "man" telling a women what she should do with her own body and life.
PS. I am not your "bro"!
Guillermo,
We have forgiven her for her crime againt God!! Now, don't you think it's time you, and all your leftist buddies, forgive us conservative Christians for trying to follow Jesus's example by embracing and trying to protect life as the gift from God that it is??
Guillermo,
It wasn't a matter of us prying into my sister-in-law's medical affairs. She was bragging about it to anyone who would listen, whether they wanted to hear it or not. My brother was crushed by her independant actions. He didn't even know she was pregnant either time. He wanted children very badly. There marriage finally, and mercifully, ended in divorce. And, yes, my wife is a devout Catholic. She would never dream of such a thing!!
Marcus,
Yes, we do keep harping on rape, incest, and endangerment of the mothers life, because those things are IMPORTANT, despite the fact that only a small percentage of abortions are performed for those reasons.
But it's called pro-CHOICE (not Pro-Abortion) for a reason. Because it's the mother's CHOICE, not the governments. It's a choice that must be made between the Mother and her physician (and her god, if she worships one).
YOU may think that a fetus constitutes human life that should be protected. Someone ELSE might think otherwise (I know I do). So you can CHOOSE not to have an abortion, and they can CHOOSE to have an abortion. (You can also CHOOSE not to associate yourself with people who have abortions if you want). Being pro-choice is about everyone having their OWN choice, not forcing your choice on anyone else.
The question of "Is a fetus a human with rights?" is not a black and white question. Which is why the decision shouldn't be left up to the government. It should be left up to the individuals who are pregnant.
To all you Pro-Abortion people out there. You keep harping on rape, incest, endangerment of the would be mother's life to justify abortion. How do you explain what I am about to say? When my brother was married to his first wife, she got pregnant during that marriage twice, she was aborted twice. The only reason she gave for this was "It would have interfered with my career and lifestyle". My wife was so furious with her when she found out, she never talked to her again. Abortion is not, and was not, ever intended to be a form of birth control. From all indications, there were no problems or anomolies that justified an abotion in my sister-in-laws case. There is way too much of this senseless killing of our future leaders going on for the sake of preserving jobs or "lifestyles". Smile, if you're reading this, your mother didn't abort you!!
MrsSmith,
"Why? The child is the SAME PERSON before birth as after birth"
That argument really only applies to late term abortion, when the fetus is viable. Before that, it is not possible for the fetus to survive outside a womb, so it's not really as much the "SAME PERSON" as it is the same genetic material.
Late Term abortion (legally: after 18 weeks in the US) is a state issue. The Roe v Wade ruling does not prevent restrictions on late term abortions. In fact, most states DO have bans on late term abortion. I see no problem with this, leaving it up to individual states to decide. And some states do not even allow for exceptions for health concerns(that I do not agree with).
As for your other arguments:
The World Health Organization estimates that 19 million unsafe abortions occur around the world annually and that 68,000 of them result in the death of the mother. Complications of unsafe abortion account(globally) for approximately 13% of all maternal moralities.
http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/p...
Early-Term abortion (before the 12th week. Almost 90% of abortions in the US) is statistically safer than childbirth.
Sources:
Henshaw, Stanley K. (June 1990). "Induced Abortion: A World Review, 1990". International Family Planning Perspectives 23 (2): 246--252.
Grimes DA (1994). "The morbidity and mortality of pregnancy: still risky business". Am. J. Obstet. Gynecol. 170 (5 Pt 2): 1489--94. PMID 8178896.
Seriously, the information is 1 minute away. Just look it up before you type!
In every single argument FOR abortion, except to actually save the mother's life, you can substitute the right to kill the unwanted child after birth...and suddenly, everyone considers that murder. Why? The child is the SAME PERSON before birth as after birth.
If it's "the mother's decision," then why do we charge mothers with murder if they kill the infant after the birth?? (How many of you are aware that Texas is currently considering a law that would make the death of a child a lesser crime than murder IF the child is not yet 1 year old and IF the mother is the one that kills him or her?)
....
The only reason to abort a child is to save the mother's LIFE. It is better to save 1 than to lose 2.
.....
Mike, are you aware that many states don't even require abortionist to have a medical license? The only difference between "back alley" abortions and those done today is the legal stance.
There were never, ever millions of women dying from botched abortions.
There are, still, today, women dying from botched LEGAL abortions. Tiller himself killed more than a dozen.
Every argument that allows for abortion is based on false "facts."
....
By the way, Sam, GREAT COLUMN!
Rule of thumb:
Usually, if someone states a statistic at 99% and does not cite their source, they are making it up.
According to the sources cited below, somewhere around 6% or 7% of abortions are performed due to health reasons (health of the mother, fetal disorder), and around 1% are performed because of rape/incest.
This leaves about 92% or 93% of abortions performed for social reasons (contraceptive failure, poverty, emotional immaturity, inconvenience, etc.)
I'm not trying to support MY position with these statistics (92% is still quite a high percentage). So Sam's original point (the number performed for non-medical reasons is high) still stands. Though it is not AS high as he suggested
It just annoys me when people want to use statistics and they just make them up. It's especially lazy when you are on the Internet and LITERALLY seconds away from the information.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/a...
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fast...
I say we should let the government make all of our decisions. Well, just the ones that sam approves of.
"Don't get caught up in the extreme example, over 99% of all abortions have NOTHING to do with rape incest, or life of the mother issues. They are done out of stupidity, lack of respect for life and a pop culture with no heart."
Be careful what you are implying Sam. It takes 2 to get pregnant. How this can all be overcome is parents taking more responsiblity is raising their children and teaching them right vs wrong. Today's society has shown that parents are very lax in their child rearing. Be tough, strong and love. Show and discuss what the consequences of their actions are going to be.
Regardless of the reason for abortion, jhat is correct in stating that it's the womans decision she has to live with not the governments. Leave government out of it.
Those who point out that women "bear the scars" of their abortions later in life are correct in some cases. Many women go on to regret their abortions. And many don't. Many are able to have a better quality of life, and many go on to have children later in life. Many are glad to have saved their babies from a short and painful life in the hospital (in cases of genetic/developmental problems).
But the whole point of being pro-CHOICE is that we want the WOMAN to decide, not the government. If the woman decides to have an abortion, and it damages her emotionally later in life, that's her responsibility, not the governments. If a woman makes the brave decision to keep a baby from a rape, that's HER decision. If she decides to end the pregnancy and move on, it's HER decision.
I don't want anyone to ever have to get an abortion. I badly want to get rid of every reason abortions are performed, rape, disease, poverty, unwanted pregnancy, etc.
But until we can eliminate those causes, I want women who CHOOSE to have abortions to be able to have them done medically and professionally.
I have always felt that abortion should be an option in the case of rape and if the mother may die. Also in the extremely rare case where the baby will not survive the pregnancy and the doctor can say that with near 100% certainty I think it should be an option.
I don't assume that all women would want to get rid of a baby born because of rape. However, I can not force a rape victim to have the baby. To the woman that raised her, shes strong. I don't think a lot of women would be willing to do that.
There's millions of women who regret their abortion and there's a lot of them that will probably never get over it, there's also millions of women who sleep soundly at night after their abortion.
I don't believe in abortion as birth control or as a way to get rid of babies with high probability of disease.
I also don't think the U.S. is ready for a law banning abortions though. There's not enough education about them. Not enough know the process or what it looks like. Because of that, I think they'll seek out the abortions anyways in unsafe environments.
I'm a much bigger fan on using persuasion and education rather then law on this one. It helps keep the pro-choicer's at bay as its not a law based on religion, but an education based on fact with a bit of emotion mixed in. On the other hand, if one was created, it wouldn't really phase me either.
I do think that one way or another, abortion numbers will come down and that I see as a great thing.
Thanks folks for reading and commenting.
First, if my daughter were raped, and there was a resulting pregnancy asked above. Are you saying that I should pull my daughter aside, and say something like, "Honey, I know you have been violated, and harmed. The solution now is for you to harm and violate. Kill the innocent child."
No one would blame a woman, if raped, to not want to keep a baby of rape, but adoption becomes a viable option.
Let me ask you abortion fans something. Would you be willing to eliminate abortion except for rape, incest or threat of life to mother?
You libs wouldn't dare go along with something like that. Abortion to you on the left is much more than about rape, incest or life of the mother. It is the religious lefts attempt to gain some ultimate victory over God, and over Christianity.
NPWinder - your comments don't add up to the millions of testimonies from women who have been victimized by abortion. I spoke with a woman the other day who still is haunted by her abortion clear back in 1978. You want to talk about long term effect?
There are also the testimonies of women who have given birth to rape babies. They choose not to punish the child for the sins of the father. These women found , through their act of love to the rape baby, that they were able to put very ugly incidents behind them.
I actually heard one woman, in a interview, talk about how she had kept her rape baby, a little girl. Now the little girl has grown up, married with a family, and brought so much joy into the mothers life. The victim of rape, the mother, said something incredible. She said that God rewarded her with this baby, for the horror she suffered.
I am not a meat head. I understand the emotions involved. Automatically figuring that every woman, faced with a rape baby, would choose to execute the innocent child, is wrong. You are vastly underestimating women.
Don't get caught up in the extreme example, over 99% of all abortions have NOTHING to do with rape incest, or life of the mother issues. They are done out of stupidity, lack of respect for life and a pop culture with no heart.
Guillermo
Part of the reason the "Jesus crew" is so adamantly opposed to abortion is because of the very damage done to the women that you so eloquently described. Ours is a "before the fact" argument designed not only to protect the unborn but the women who will forever bear the scars. Even those who find forgiveness at the foot of the cross -- as all sinners must, regardless of what their sins may be -- still suffer deeply in their souls. It is not just the life of a child at stake here, it never has been. I apologize if our rhetoric sometimes gets caustic, as you pointed out, but the stakes are higher than any of us can imagine, and sometimes we admittedly get carried away.
As has been pointed out numerous times, the RTL crew, many of whom also serve on the "Jesus crew" abhor the murder of Tiller.
Rural Citizen,
There have been many protests at recruitment centers in the past too. Just recently, one of them was bombed in New York City. I think if the baby killing centers deserve protection, then so do our recruitment centers!
Well stated np!
I don't see why we should force a woman who was raped to have to live the thought of the rape over and over and over and over throughout the pregnancy and the child's life.
women feel so vulnerable after being raped. she's beat emotionally and physically. It can take years for them to get back to their pre-rape mentality. Adding a child to that mix won't help the situation at all.
Then what will happen if the rapist father wants to be in the child's life. The woman has to deal with the man who held her down and raped her all over again. She's already had to deal with the man that screwed up her life once, Now, she has to do all over again to keep the kid away from him.
Also, the sexual contact wasn't wanted by the woman. she was forced into it. The baby shouldn't have been conceived in the first place.
"I wonder why liberals are so willing to execute a baby, because his/her father was a rapist. Is that liberal justice?"
Are you serious? The impregnanted female does not know the background of the rapist. Drug habits, sexual diseases, or even worse...Aids. Can you honestly tell me that if your daughter was raped you would want to take that risk and bring a sickened (destined to die) baby into the world?
this isn't liberal justice. It's called commen sense and personal liability.
Sam, thanks for not backing off the abortion issue. I have always appreciated your stand for the unborn.
Mr. Hendricks likes to use those extreme examples doesn't he? It depends on which study you choose to beleive, but the number of abortions that have to do with rape, incest, or life of the mother, are less than one tenth of one percent.
I do not understand the logic of killing so many innocent babies because of a few problem pregnancies.
I wonder why liberals are so willing to execute a baby, because his/her father was a rapist. Is that liberal justice?
What am I saying, there is no such thing as liberal justice.
SWNebr Transplant,
I THINK that's how the law works. I might be mistaken, but most abortion/murder law is actually written at the state level. The laws simply have to comply with the Roe v Wade ruling. Which means they can't make abortion illegal. This is why late term abortion is legal in some states (Kansas) and not others.
As far as 'financial abortion', once the baby is born, the father has the legal obligation to it (and is also granted parental rights). Before the baby is born, the father has no parental rights OR legal financial obligation. (again, I'm not 100% sure. That's just my understanding of the law).
Of course, the legal situation is uniform black and white. In some states, the father can get a court order to prevent an abortion if the mother is deemed mentally unstable. Unfortunately, situations like that can lead to late term abortions, because the court takes too long to rule the mother mentally competent enough to decide for herself.
By "financial abortion" I mean a father can't say he wants nothing to do with a child and walk away without any fear of legal or civil recrimination.
I didn't know that it was only a single murder in some states. I guess all I was going on was the sensational stories that have been in the press in recent years, guess I'd assumed it was the law everywhere. Guess that show's what you get when you assume.
Marcus....you're reading too much into Obama's decision to send US Marshalls to abortion centers. He is just trying to assist in keeping peace at what has been traditionally very turmulous times and protests. There is a difference between an abortion center protest and what happened with the recruiter being murdered. Recruitment centers are not typically protested with such vigilance and rage like abortion centers. Obama is sending help to control a very bad situation. I'm not saying having a recruiter murdered is not a bad thing, it's just different when there are thousands of abortion centers and thousands of vigilanty type protests happening around them.
Sam, I, like you, hate the fact that Tiller was murdered. I question, however, Obama's reaction to it. He is sending US Marshalls to abortion centers to make sure there is no repeat of this crime. Meanwhile, a US Army recruiter was murdered, and another seriously wounded, by a Muslim terrorist, and I don't see the same reaction. I think it's time we question the motives of "The Annointed One". Is it more important to protect the lives of abortionists than it is to protect the lives of those protecting OUR lives and liberties?? Ponder that!!
SWNebr,
That depends on the state. In some states, it's considered two, in others only one.
what is a "financial abortion"?
Why is a person who murders a pregnant woman charged with two murders?
Why can't a father perform a "financial abortion" for lack of a better term?
Rural Citizen,
I don't consider the morning after pill an abortion, so I did not include people who use that. But I agree with you. It is a moral and ethical decision that the government should not control, at all.
SWNebr,
The father doesn't have any rights because the it's not his body. The mother has the right to end the pregnancy as it is a medical procedure that affects her own body. When the baby is born, and legally becomes a citizen, the father has paternal rights.
Why doesn't a father of a child who is aborted have any rights?
I have met people who just had an abortion just because they are pregnant and had no problem seeing it as a viable birth control. I have also met people who have placed children for adoption, and have met people who cannot have children who would love to care for any child, even one with different needs. For those who didn't want to become pregnant in the first place, again I don't see abortion as a method of birth control. If someone doesn't want to become pregnant there are several tactics to employ that can prevent it. For those who only want "healthy" kids, as I said in another post I don't feel that people with disablilities are sub-human and don't deserve to be born. I still don't favor Eugenics.
Guillermo:
Not everyone who is against abortion is against it for religious reasons.
"I have never met anyone with the attitude "Oh, I'm pregnant. No problem, I'll just get an abortion!"
I bet you have!!! They do have the after morning pill available over the counter so how do you know, you've never met someone with this attitude. Anyone who purchases this pill has that attitude!
whatever happened to keeping church and state separate? In my opinion, Roe vs. Wade saw to it that it's the females decision whether or not to abort her unborn child. NOT THE GOVERNMENT and no one else for that matter. In my opinion, this is a moral, ethical and religious decision. Keep it separate and keep the government out of this.
If a doctor is performing abortions, let him be. It's his decision, practice, job between him and the female involved. Along with God.
SWNebr,
I've met several people who have had abortions.
A few were mothers who found out their children were going to be born with congenital defects, that would make their lives short and painful. I daresay that they didn't WANT abortions. They wanted healthy children who were capable of living a full and happy life.
I've also met at least one person who had an abortion simply to stop a pregnancy. In her case, her boyfriend ran off when he found out she was pregnant, and she didn't have the financial ability to afford the baby (or the pregnancy).
I think this is a semantic issue here.
I do WANT abortions to be performed safely and legally.
But I don't WANT them to be necessary. I don't WANT abortion to be a form of birth control. I don't WANT anyone to HAVE to get an abortion.
What I WANT is for no woman to ever have a need for an abortion. I WANT them to not get pregnant in the first place, and I WANT a medical cure for all medical conditions that necesitate abortion.
I WANT to minimize (or eliminate) unwanted pregnancies from occuring, so that women don't have a reason to get abortions (save the aforementioned issues with fetal illness).
I have never met anyone with the attitude "Oh, I'm pregnant. No problem, I'll just get an abortion!"
Everyone I've ever met or heard about who has had an abortion came to the painful decision after a long time of thinking about it. I've never met anyone who wanted to get their abortion. Just women who wanted healthy kids, or women who wanted to be not pregnant in the first place.
As far as not knowing anyone who wants abortions to be perfomed, you two don't think you've ever met someone who has had an abortion?
Well said Guillermo. I too have not met anyone who WANTS abortions to be performed. Just people who feel that it's the woman's right to decide, and not theirs, or anybody else's.
The thing I find really ironic is that abstinence-only education (typically promoted by the same people who are anti-abortion) INCREASES the number of unwanted pregnancies (and, one would assume, the number of abortions necessary to end those pregnancies).
It's not just MY opinion that abstinence-only education doesn't work. A plethora of medical/psychological organizations including the AMA and APA agree that it is ineffective and unrealistic.
A recent study showed that students who received abstinence-only education AND took 'virginity pledges' were JUST as likely to have sex as other teenagers. Additionally, the abstinence-only students were significantly LESS likely to use protection against pregnancy/STDs.
You want to stop abortions? Make sure EVERYONE is thoroughly educated about contraceptive methods, and that they are easily, and perhaps freely, available. (sure beats bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors, doesn't it?)
Sam:
The way to stop abortions is to educate and provide support for alternatives for women who are seeking abortion. After all it takes two to tango, there aren't "serial abortionist" lurking in dark parking lots waiting to assault defenseless women as they leave the office, at least not in my neigborhood. Criminalizing and jailing abortion providers would do nothing. Unlike you, I am saddened for the loss of Dr. Tiller for the pain his friends and family endure. I find it telling that your first feeling was anger that someone had taken away your straw man and that it would weaken your argument. If I was more judgemental and self-righteous I would say "how very Christian of you."
Mike:
Where do you get your numbers that "millions of women would have died?" I think I've seen you use it a couple of times, and I wondered where the statistics are. I'm not accusing neccessarily, it just seems like the type of fringe hyperbole that people throw around to incite and fan flames, not researched and collected data. Kinda like Sam's attacks on the educations system.
Guillermo:
There is a difference between pragmatism and defeatism. I don't see you being very pragmatic about the faith of billions of people, too busy attacking just like Sam does with everything.
Dr. Tiller was a barbarian and a murderer who supported a luxurious life style for his wife, his own four children and 10 grandchldren with the blood of 60 million dead babies. I wanted him in jail as well, Sam, not dead. There is no statistic or even a claim that millions of women died because of a botched abortion before abortion was legalized. Give me a break.
"If we, who defend innocent life, had been doing a better job of stopping this abortion horror, then Tiller would have been out of business years ago."
And millions of women would have died from complications from an illegal abortion. Is that the trade-off you want?
Let me ask you a question. Let's say you have a daughter. She is brutally raped and beaten to within inches of death. She is impregnated. Now, because of her pregnancy, the doctor's can't keep enough blood going through her system and she is probably going to die. Because of the lack of blood, the baby also is not developing as it should. The doctor's come to you and say that the only way to save your daughter's life is to abort. If they don't both mother and child will die. What do you do?
Signed, an emotional
"How do we know that abortionists have not killed off children who would have grown to find a cure for cancer, or rid the world of AIDS? In the incredible death toll of abortion, we may have already killed the child who could have helped us with our energy problems, or children who could have been great writers or thinkers. In the lefts zeal to play God, they have killed off fifty million attempts by God to help us."
Ironically, with so many aborted souls, odds are several would have grown up to perform abortions. Life's a trip.
We as humans do not value life until our own is threatened. I am with you on this one. Abortion is murder. But again, that does not make every democrat a murderer sam.