Oh Boy! I'm Rich!

This literally makes me sick! This year I paid in over 8K in taxes!! And Uncle Sugar wants me to pay in another grande on top of that! Now they will use my tax dollars to prop up the businesses that were run into the ground by unethical idiots, to support unions that do nothing but make earning a living much harder for those who are not union workers, and give more support for the people that didnt pay any taxes to begin with.

It looks to me that the people that do the lionshare of the work are the only one that will get no help.

magawd this is tedious.....

I'M PISSED!! The democrats want the Porkulus Bill voted on and passed today before the evening news airs. The bill was just posted last night around 11:30 PM EST. NOBODY has read the entire bill yet!! In order to read and understand the entire 1400 page bill, you would have to read around 490 wpm.

Why, you ask, do the Dems want it passed so quickly?? Because Princess Pelosi has to leave for Europe tomorrow morning to receive some bogus award from the Italians!

Obama promised "Transparency" in his administration........That's a blatant LIE!! He promised that we would have 5 days to read and digest the bill in it's final form.....another LIE!!!

Wake up people, call your congressmen and senators NOW and DEMAND that they get enough time to debate this bill!!

We're talking about the largest spending bill in the history of the United States of America!!

This bill could take away freedoms that we now have, and give the government powers they were never intended to have by our Founding Fathers!!

I know, I sound a little frantic.....but this could change the course of history!!

If we don't speak up now.....we may as well grab our ankles, put our heads between our legs, and kiss our collective keesters goodbye!!

GOD BLESS and PROTECT AMERICA!!!

I marvel at how easily you Dems embrace Socialism.

Well, for starters the government dosent like to air their dirty laundry. Any one directly harmed by the patriot act is not going to talk and our government is not going to say anything.

Name me one person it has helped. Talk is cheap so how do you reconcile your love on limited government and your love of the patriot act which was nothing more than a government power grab based on fear.

Some of the people who spy on our telephone calls have flat out stated that they would listen in to "spicy" phone conversations and tell their co workes to do the same. Now, I dont know the name of the people they were listening in on but that is an invasion of privacy and I would say they were harmed.

I cant believe that you would condone this action. Its none of the governments business what I do but they have made it their business.

Its big brother in its infantcy man, wake up

I do not think anyone is claiming that the democrats were justified in "rounding up American citizens by the thousands". I would like to think that if I were alive then, I would have vehemently opposed that executive order. No one on this site has ever claimed that the democrats have never made mistakes, or that they are the perfect party.

Interestingly, the patriot act can be seen in much the same way. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, the US government reacted by taking away the civil liberties of Japanese Americans. This was an unjust action, that the government justified by saying it was necessary to keep us safe.

When "Al Quaeda attacked Washington and New York, the government reacted by taking certain civil liberties away from ALL Americans. This was an unjust action, that the government justified by saying it was necessary to keep us safe."

We are not damned if we do and damned if we don't. We are only damed if we sacrifice our freedoms out of fear.

We may be safer from harm by giving up certain freedoms, I will concede that. I suppose that a police state with cameras on every corner and in your home would make you physically safer.

But, "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. " -Ben Franklin

I didn't bring up the patriot act to begin with. Personally, I find the majority of the act to be necessary. Even the roving wiretaps which violate the particularity clause of the Fourth Amendment. A new age and new technologies require changes to the way we fight terrorism.

As for naming individuals, bigdawg is right, we are ALL harmed by the reduction of civil liberties, including the reductions in the patriot act. But, since you asked for individuals:

1)FBI agents used "sneak and peak" searches (they executed a warrant without notifying the individual, allowed by the patriot act) to search the home of attorney Brandon Mayfield. He was wrongly jailed for two weeks as a suspect in the Madrid train Bombings. His DNA sample was taken, his hard drives were confiscated, and his personal possessions were cataloged. These searches were then ruled unconstitutional and made illegal. He is now suing the government for damages.

2)Adam McGaughey ran a fan website for Stargate SG-1. He posted videos that violated copyright law (happens ALL the time on youtube). The FBI used the computer fraud and abuse provisions of the patriot act to subpoena his FINANCIAL records.

3)In 2004 Steve Kurtz, a professor at the University of Buffalo, had his home and possessions seized, and was held for a day without charges being brought against him. See, he had been using bioequipment to work with harmless bacteria. He was prosecuted under the biological weapons anti-terrorism act (by provisions specified in the Patriot Act).

These are the individuals I was able to find in FIVE minutes online. So please don't make the claim "oh, there is only 3. Big deal." I don't have time to track down every abuse. But while I'm at it...

-The patriot act removed the FISA requirement that the government prove a surveillance target is a non-US citizen and "agent of a foreign power"

-The patriot act removed term limits for interim US Attorneys at the Dept. of Justice (previously 120 days). This essentially gives the Attorney General more appointment power than the president, as he can fire attorneys and appoint their indefinite replacements WITHOUT senate approval (remember the Alberto Gonzales scandal?)

-The patriot act allows the FBI to send out "National Security Letters" that allow them to request information at their discretion. It does NOT require a judge or probable cause (like a search warrant does).

-BusinessWeek reported in 2005 that the FBI had issued tens of thousands of National Security Letters to obtain over 1 records from customers of Las Vegas businesses. These included financial records, employment records, and health records.

-The American Libraries Association has claimed that the National Security Letters that have been sent to public libraries have been so broad as to include all computer usage by ALL users during a specified time frame. These time periods have even included time when minors were using the computers. (Case pending in court system)

-The information obtained during the course of an investigation used to be deleted (if the person was found innocent). The patriot act allows the government to maintain these records indefinitely, and to "Share them with third parties where appropriate." Although it conveniently does not define which "third parties" or when it is "appropriate".

-Justice department (March 2007) audits found that the FBI had illegally used the patriot act to obtain personal information over 1000 times.

-The New York Times wrote about the Patriot Act being used to investigate ALLEGED drug traffickers WITHOUT probable cause. (Despite the fact that the President and members of congress assured the public that it would ONLY be used to combat terrorism).

To find these abuses I only had to spend about about 15 minutes using google. I am sure there are some I missed.

I have the same qualms (albeit to a greater extent) about the patriot act as I do about the stimulus package. They both are huge bills that I feel are both necessary. But they are also knee-jerk reactions by congress to extreme events. And as knee-jerk reactions, they are both imperfect. Though the imperfections of the stimulus will create wasted spendings, whereas the imperfections of the patriot act laid waste to civil liberties.

And you know who will be at fault for the next terrorist attack? The same people who were responsible for the last terrorist attack, radical extremists. Not democrats, not republicans, but crazy radical extremists. I refuse to give up any freedom to ensure my security. I could place blame here that the biggest terrorist attacked occurred while George Bush was in office, and that he had ample opportunity to raise the defenses. But I don't blame Bush. I blame the people who flew the planes, and the people who enabled them.

And what are the ongoing attacks that liberals are making on civil liberties?

1st amendment - Are you talking about the fairness doctrine? No one has introduced ANY legislation about it since 2005.

2nd amendment - I might see your point here. This is where I break with the far-left pretty clearly. Despite the fact that I have had someone very dear to me die due to a handgun, I still support every citizen's right to bear arms. Although, I do stress that the second amendment calls for a "well regulated militia", so I have no qualms about requiring gun registration and monitoring.

I'm so confused. G5, you have been railing against the stimulus bill because you say it will reduce our freedoms. And saying that we must defend freedom and fight encroachments upon it. Yet you paint the stimulus bill (which does not overtly limit any freedoms) as an assault on the core foundation of liberty. While you dismiss the Patriot act (which DOES overtly limit freedom and expand government power) as a necessity.

As, I've said, I think that many of the provisions in the patriot act were necessary, but there were a few that were an encroachment on our freedoms and an affront to the constitution.

I am also concerned about the warrant-less wiretapping that was performed on American citizens by the NSA at the request of the Administration. Also, the suspension of Habeas Corpus for detainees. Everyone deserves the right to a trial. It's right there in the Constitution. As well as the illegal searches and seizures that can now be performed within 100 miles of our borders (which houses the majority of our population).

G5 and Sam,

Are my posts not showing or something? I named THREE individual people who were harmed by the patriot act, as well as many violations of freedom that affected many people. Yet you are both still claiming that you are still waiting for someone to list ONE person whose rights were violated. What gives? Do you 4th amendment violations not count? Are you just hoping my post was so long winded that people won't believe it and just believe you?

I also addressed the fairness doctrine. There has been NO legislation introduced to reinstitute the fairness doctrine since 2005. N-O-N-E. Not even political grandstanding legislation (which happens far too frequently). A small minority of the democrats think it should be reinstated. And an even smaller number would actually TRY to reinstate it. The ONLY place I've heard anyone talk seriously about the fairness doctrine is on talk radio and conservative blogs.

And, Obama has not pushed for ANY gun legislation during his short term as president, and he did not run on the promise of creating any gun legislation. If you are angry about the assault weapons ban, you can blame both the democrats AND the republicans, as they both voted for it overwhelmingly (50/53 democrats, 45/47 republicans).

Personally, I think everyone should be allowed to have whatever guns they want. As long as their is accountability via some sort of registration. I want them to be able to pull a bullet out of an innocent bystander and trace it back to the shooter (this is not impossible. Watch CSI?) How does this get taken as a "disgusting attack on the second amendment"?

And they backstabbed the president every chance they got? Like when they screwed him over by voting to allow him to take military action in Iraq? Or when they voted for the Patriot act? Or when they voted to reinstate the patriot act provisions that expired in 2005? When they practically bent over and grabbed their ankles on any republican legislation while they were the minority?

They were critical of the president at times. That's politics. And I expect any politicians to voice dissent they have, especially when it reflects the will of the people. That's why we elect them. Were they overly critical at times. Yes. But I don't think any reasonable person would accuse them of treason and harboring the enemies.

And when the terrorists attack again, blame will go around exactly the same way it did last time. The right will blame Obama (like they blamed Clinton last time), and the left will blame Bush (like they blamed Bush last time). The right will call Obama "soft on terrorism", while the left will say that Bush "engendered hate around the world". That is exactly what will happen. The widening chasm between left and right. Help be the voice of reason that stops it, instead of adding to the distance.

Thank you doodle bug. And I would extend your request to EVERYONE, liberals AND conservatives, to treat each other in a respectful manner.

The best way to "win" an argument in the eyes of others is to remain respectful and rational while your opponent is screaming obscenities at you.