Reading your article, Sam, I expected to be entry number 8 or 10. Perhaps you heated this potato a bit warmer than anyone wants to chew on. Ha!

Your words are a bit stronger than I would espouse, but not by much. I would say: If President-elect Obama, based upon what he says he wants to do, doesn't cripple this country, it won't be for not trying. I keep hoping, and praying (ops, can I still say that?) that my gut-feeling is wrong....but.....

We will have a much better idea within the year. Oh, don't worry about the lies catching up with the press, cause the Bible says that these times, right will be made wrong, and wrong be made right (you know....say something, however ridiculous, enough times, and people will believe it as truth (like: Freedom 'of' Religion, now meaning: Freedom 'from' Religion)).

Well said.

In Messiah, His Shalom, and truth. Arley

Hey brian,

Dont try to elevate the discussion here, it wont work. JUST TYPE IN BOLD AND START NAME CALLING AND KEEP SAYING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER.

sorry - thought of a couple of other things. To my pals Brian and Dawg...

1. Was the UK reporter right or wrong in her assessment of Mr. Obama?

2. Has the media been in the tank for Mr. Obama or not?

3. Is, or is not, the media overwhelmingly left wing?

I get it, you don't like my style. Okay, but answer my questions, and please address the points I made.

Well, I must say I'm guilty of voting for Obama at the Caucus, but that was before certain things came to light. After that I was a McCain supporter, but I'm trying to remain optimistic. I've certainly noticed that Obama is leaning more toward the center now that the economy has taken the express train south.

My biggest issue with the media during the election was the complete character destruction of Sarah Palin, in the name of blaming her "inexperience." Sure she had a few gaffs, but for the most part, she's an amazing and exciting speaker with an excellent approval rating in her state. If experience is that important, then you would think Joe Biden would not have had so MANY oopsies during the campaign, yet his were quickly swept under the rug. You Tube "Biden Stand Up Chuck" for an example of just how downright ditzy Biden can be at times.

One important reason I did not vote for Obama is because I did not believe that he would protect this nation. The appointment of Leon Panetta indicates the level of security we can expect in the future. Whatever problems we have in this country can be solved only if we are not buried under the debris of another terrorist attack. Say what you will about George W.Bush, there has not been another attack on American soil by these terrorists creeps.

I always wonder about the analogy that Bush's actions have led to more terrorists, like the Jihadists need a reason to hate. I strongly disagree that Bush's policies have led to a more hostile world. If anything, Bush should have been tougher. Peace through strength.

Well, incidents of terrorism on a world-wide level have increased drastically since the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Granted, a large percentage of these attacks have occurred in Iraq and Afghanistan, but even discounting those countries, it has still been on the rise.

Of course, correlation does not prove causation. However, I would assert that our needless invasion of Iraq, which was seen as reckless and unnecessary by the majority of the world, has bolstered anti-American sentiment (especially in the Arab world), which leads to an increase in terrorism.

Additionally, the actions of the US in Iraq since the invasion lead to even more anti-American sentiment. The practice of torture and the drastic civilian death toll in Iraq both make very effective recruiting tools for Muslim jihadists.

Everyone needs a reason to hate, even jihadists. While their fundamentalist interpretation of their religion gives them enough reason to hate, the anti-American sentiment gives them much stronger recruiting numbers.

Firstly, I do not blame Bush for everything. What did I say to make you think that? I don't think there is anything wrong with critiquing government policies instituted by the president. It certainly doesn't mean I feel that way about all of his policies.

Or did you just make the knee-jerk assumption that I was a crazy fanatic just because I'm leveling criticism at the president.

And...

The World Health Organization estimates the Iraqi civilian death toll at 104,000 - 223,000. Johns Hopkins University estimated it at over 600,000. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...

Additionally, the Iraq Body Count (who counts based on media reports, morgue/hospital stats), has a very conservative value of about 100,000. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

I guess we could argue over the meaning of the word "drastic".

(The above numbers also do not count the estimated death toll caused by the Iraq sanctions. The sanctions were passed by the UN after the Kuwait invasion. The UN attempted to repeal them multiple times, citing the civilian deathrate. However the US vetoed all attempts to repeal them.)

And we have tortured people. It is confirmed public knowledge that waterboarding was used to extract information. Waterboarding is illegal according to international law and the Geneva conventions. We prosecuted some Japanese officers after WWII for war crimes because they waterboarded (among other things) military prisoners. It is illegal in US law under the War Crimes Act. Multiple people who declared waterboarding was NOT torture quickly changed their minds after trying it (see Christopher Hitchens).

Also, there have been allegations of abuse, torture, sodomy and homicide involving prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. At least some of the allegations have been confirmed so far.

I guess we could argue over the meaning of "torture."

(I would recommend "How to Break a Terrorist" by Matthew Alexander for a look at how interrogation can be more effective WITHOUT torture)

I'm not a "blame America first" guy. But I'm also not a "America can do no wrong" guy. I blame Saddam's aggressive invasion of Kuwait, his brutal gassing of his own people in Halabja. I blame violet extremism caused by a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam for the 9/11 attacks. It is unreasonable to levy all blame for things on America's shoulders. But it is equally unreasonable to deny America's culpability entirely.

and one more thing - Chris Hitchens? I must say, your sources are very leftist, very atheist, very questionable. They are the same old leftist morons who are full of their own morality, and it changes constantly.

Simply amazing. I guess with all the sheer indoctrination out there, I am not surprised that you believe we torture. Truly amazing. No wonder our country is on the verge of going down the tubes.

Are you saying that Japanese Officers were tried for war crimes for water boarding, and only water boarding?

Do you have any evidence that the US engaged in any alledged form of torture other than water boarding?

Regarding the UN, is there any evidence that this organization exist for any reason other than fleecing the American Taxpayer or condemning the USA or Israel?

I must confess ignorance of the Johns Hopkins study you speak of. I promise to look into it.

I remember the old days of the Olympics. Much of the World cheated constantly, and used their pros to compete against our amateurs. We all knew they cheated, and yet we went on and acted like we did not know. I bring up this example because it seems that is what is going on with this torture business.

The Islamic Nazis do whatever, cut peoples heads off, plant ammo and weapons of warfare with women and kids, and we fight them with one hand tied behind our backs. This seems to me to be kind of a phony nobility. War is hell, is it not? Are we to sacrifice the lives of our kids to foster this notion of superior nobility?

Does the Geneva Convention condone the type of attacks made on 9-11? Was this "acceptable" warfare? To use innocent women and children in suicide attacks on civilians?

I grew up in inner city Denver. Once, I was attacked by several gang members with bats, chains, etc., while walking home from school. I fought for my life, I did not use Sir Marcus of Queensbury rules. Some could say that I fought "unfairly" when I grabbed a rock and struck one of the gang members in the head. All I know is, I survived the attack.

We Americans have always tried to be honorable. Was Truman wrong when he choose to nuke Japan? Or was he to sacrifice a half a million US kids to physically attack the island of Japan and maintain nobility? I think Truman made the right choice. We did not start the war. Too many fine kids had already shed blood.

If we use harsh interrogation techniques that save the lives of American kids, and our women and children, I find that acceptable.

I think the left used this torture argument to hurt Bush, and not out of any sense of hyper-nobility.

Forbes is certainly okay with me my friend! LOL

The soldiers who committed crimes at the prison in Iraq should be prosecuted. They hurt the war effort. Could I make the point that since the US IS prosecuting the guilty soldiers, it shows we don't condone that activity?

John McCain was tortured, and his voice carries weight for sure, and I think he'd agree with you.

Since you and I are engaged in friendly discussion here, let me say that I think the left jumped on the torture issue simply to hurt Bush, and the war effort. I got the "feeling" (Gawd, I hate using that leftist word) that the left was almost operating like a "fifth column". They would have gladly taken defeat in Iraq if it would make Bush look bad. Will you grant me that point?

Regarding the civilian death totals in Iraq: I find it odd that the same folks who are so concerned about the civilian death toll in Iraq, seem to care nothing for the fifty million innocents slaughtered in the USA since Roe v. Wade. I find it hard to adjudicate those facts. I am not saying that every single person who opposed the war are pro-aborts, but most are, aren't they?

I know that many of us get tired of the USA being the World's policeman. I do, I really do. Sometimes I wish we were more "Isolationists", but my faith says that God cares about all people everywhere, just not Americans. Don't the folks living in Iraq have the right to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"? It is a tough problem for sure, and when President Bush wanted to go into Iraq, I was puzzled. However, the Congress voted to give him the authority to do so, and once that vote was made, they should have supported Bush, and set aside their partisan politics and supported the man, but they did not. They stabbed Bush in the back at every opportunity.

I am going to agree with you, that the USA should do its best to fight with honor. It is a hard thing to do in war, but hard or not, we should do our best. You win that argument.

I grow tired however, of the many countries and factions around the World, that demand the USA always take the high road, while they behave any damn way they want to, don't you?

I still have a hard time agreeing with you that our water boarding is a "fantastic recruiting tool." Again, it comes down to you saying that we are responsible for the terrorists, and I reject that. Islam still basically has a "convert or die" policy. Islamic extremism is not our fault jhat, it just is not our fault!

Ronald Reagan made a wonderful speech in 1968 in which he talked about the two billion people that lived behind the iron curtain, and he asked the question about our obligation to free these people from tyranny. It is still a valid question.

My friend, I appreciate the thought and time you have shown in discussion of these issues. I can tell that you are not a person who suffers from Bush Derangement Syndrome. Many on the left do, and I will watch, with interest, as President Obama has to deal with these issues.

It is my sincere prayer that he be successful in keeping America safe. It is not going to be easy dealing with the crazies in his own party. There are many in his party that think that the USA has no right to be a "Super Power." That kind of thinking is going to end up eventually getting millions of people killed.

sam,

I'm glad I can make some points that you agree with! And I would certainly concede that SOME people on the left have used the torture issues to unfairly attack Bush, themselves acting alarmist and "holier than thou". I have a harder time believing any of them would want us to lose a war just to prove a point, but I'm certain there are those out there who would cut off their noses to spite their face, as it were.

I used to qualifier SOME above, because I'm not sure where you (or even I) draw the line of inclusion for the "left". I take it you mean anyone left of center on the political spectrum? Or only the people on the fringes?

Like you, I am tired of being the world's policeman. And I find it unfortunate that we live in a world that needs a policeman. But you are correct, we must do what we can to secure freedom and to protect the innocent. I do sincerely believe that invading Iraq did not further this goal. I would never say that Saddam was a just ruler, nor that he cared greatly for his own people. But our invasion embittered some countries in the world community against us. And if we truly wanted to save innocents and stop violence, there are more pressing issues (genocide in Darfur), and governments who are more oppressive than Saddam ever was.

And the high road is a hard road. But I think of the words of Abraham Lincoln: "If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart, which, say what you will, is the great high-road to his reason, and which, when once gained, you will find but little trouble in convincing his judgment of the justice of your cause."

We must lead by example. We must be the shining beacon, the "city on a hill". (sorry to be cliche)

And you are correct, Islamic extremism is NOT our fault. But Islamic extremism is not the only reason people are fighting us. Anti-US sentiment is also an effective recruiting tool. In the 1950's, the CIA helped overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran. Most Muslims view our invasion of Iraq as a preemptive strike against a country of Muslims who had not attacked us, and who posed little threat. Most Muslims see the Israel-Palestine conflict as a mostly one sided fight that almost exclusively claims Palestinian lives, and they see US prop-up and reinforce Israel every chance we get. Many view our very presence in the Arabian Peninsula as an abomination to their faith.

I'm not saying that any of these aforementioned things are WRONG (not saying they are right either). What I am saying is that they have CONSEQUENCES. That we know we are growing anti-US sentiment by giving so much aid to Israel. All of these things help the extremists recruit more terrorists. (not to mention their economic situation)

Imagine yourself a young Muslim man, who believes in the Muslim faith as strong as you believe in the Christian faith. Your holy men tell you that any western presence in the middle east is an abomination. Your cousins in Iraq were killed in the invasion. Your fellow Muslims have been tortured at the hands of the invaders. A man promises you eternal glory as a Martyr, as well as money for your family, if you just give up your life for Allah. Islamic extremism is not our fault. It is the fault of mad-men. But we give them reasons to hate us. Our own actions can be used against us as terrorist recruiting tools. It's not right, but that's what happens, and we must recognize this so that we can better understand the nature of our enemies.

And I apologize if I led you to believe that americans were directly responsible for the civilian deaths in Iraq. But your are correct in guessing my response. Al Quaeda was virtually non-existent in Iraq before our Invasion. And the upheaval our invasion has caused has made many cracks in the country. Cracks that have been filled in part by terrorist organizations. Fortunately, their own brutality is turning against them. Reports I've heard have indicated that their actions against the people of Iraq have turned sentiment in our favor, and away from supporting the terrorists.

People do need to be freed from tyranny. But you must realize that it's a thin line to walk. The more we meddle in world affairs, the more we will piss people off, they more people there will be trying to kill us. I believe that this is why we need stronger bonds with the other western countries. So that we can work all together to bring peace to the world.

As for the people who don't want us to act as a superpower. That is difficult. One the one hand, we ARE a superpower, so why not use that power for good? On the other hand, it is not difficult to imagine a day when we will not be an unparalleled superpower, or a day where we lose the status completely. The population surges in China and India push those countries closer to our level every day. (India has more honors students than we have students). And Russia's re-emergence as a dominant force on the Asian continent give us pause, as does our own possible economic collapse here at home.

If the day comes when we are not longer the most powerful country on the planet, or when 2+ superpowers are aligned against us, Wouldn't we want the goodwill of the rest of the world? Rather than scorn or indifference?

As for your mention of Roe v Wade. I can tell that we have very different views on that subject. I won't outline my points here, as this post has already become exceedingly long, and it is exceedingly late.